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Series Thread: 1st Round: 4) Cavs vs 5) Magic

dtgold88

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Worst part of that is the one guy probably doesn’t want to be there any more.
I mean, possible, but not sure he keeps playing down stretch and fighting to get back with a clearly injured knee.
 

Shanemansj13

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But why?

I don’t get it. The top end of what Mitchell looks like is Prime Dame. What did that ever win? Can you win a championship with Mitchell as your best player? Probably not.

This is what I keep telling stupid Sixers fan friends stuck in a moment. “Trade Embiid and build around Maxey!” Why? A volume shooting 2 guard as your best player isn’t winning a championship.
Well the Embiid issue isn’t his play, it’s bc he is ALWAYS hurt when they need him most. If you build around Mitchell the right way, you can be a clear contender. I believe that. Their two small guards, two non-stretch bigs is really not ideal.
 

dtgold88

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Game 6 man. If you expect this team to be a contender in the future this is what builds team in big moments. Guys were passing up open shots, standing in the corner and watching Mitchell. That was literally the offense
Cool.....but this is not the only game that has happened in the series and his teammates did, in fact, carry him to a game 5 win. could argue game 2, as well

what would be great is if Mitchell AND some teammates (other than Garland and Strus) show up on O in game 7.
 

msgkings322

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Game 6 man. If you expect this team to be a contender in the future this is what builds team in big moments. Guys were passing up open shots, standing in the corner and watching Mitchell. That was literally the offense
This is how it looks to me, they seem to have stalled in their improvement/movement to a contender. Mobley was supposed to become THE GUY with guys like Garland and Allen and maybe Mitchell as a core of a contender. It just seems like this is the ceiling now. Can Mobley be better, sure, but he is no longer some emerging superstar like Antman or SGA.

The path from bad to contender looks like OKC or Minnesota, and even Indiana and Orlando look like they are one piece away with each having potential superstars (Haliburton, Banchero). It doesn't feel like it's going to happen for Cleveland here, one reason why we don't hear from @WiggyRuss anymore with the giant posts about every detail of the team. He knows.
 

dtgold88

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Depends on what they are willing to do for him. WILLING to Garland or Mobley and fire JBB. Anything it takes. Willing to make changes for him and he definitely stays.
I mean, if he shows up we can win games in the playoffs with the current group

But since I am a Cavs fan and no allegiance to any one player I can also agree they need to be willing to do anything that makes the team better.
 

Shanemansj13

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Cool.....but this is not the only game that has happened in the series and his teammates did, in fact, carry him to a game 5 win. could argue game 2, as well

what would be great is if Mitchell AND some teammates (other than Garland and Strus) show up on O in game 7.
The team shot under 30% for the series from 3. Allen has been the best player up until game 5. Mitchell can’t even run. Guys gotta step up. They are lucky to be in this series as bad as they played.

If this was the Knicks, Sixers, etc. the series would be over
 

dtgold88

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More efficient but all around the rim. His jumper looks better at times but it won’t improve if he continues to pass up shots. Not sure he took a 3 this entire playoffs (actually 4 in one game, 3 in another). That’s not how you improve. He has one move, a baby hook
This is actually factually incorrect. He could use some work from 10-16 feet but he has gotten a lot better from 3-10 feet going from 38% as a rookie to 41% to 46% rate this season. He's slightly better from 0-3 feet than as a rookie but came down there since last season. 3 point rate has gone up a ton...now just needs to be able to take them more (as you kind of mentioned) and still remain in the 37% range.

as mentioned, similar year 3 season to Giannis....highly unlikely he reaches his level overall of course, but Giannis still not exactly a proficient shooter. Mobley could still reach a nance, sr. level as he's only 23 (Nance also could not shoot earlier in his career).

Just talking shooting with that last comment.....love nance and a great player, but hopefully overall Mobley exceeds his level and we need him to.
 

dtgold88

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But why?

I don’t get it. The top end of what Mitchell looks like is Prime Dame. What did that ever win? Can you win a championship with Mitchell as your best player? Probably not.

This is what I keep telling stupid Sixers fan friends stuck in a moment. “Trade Embiid and build around Maxey!” Why? A volume shooting 2 guard as your best player isn’t winning a championship.
Totally agree.....Love DM but not sure how far we go if he's our best player. Still need Mobley to be that guy (and could as he's only 23) or someone else maybe at the SF spot.

I really don't get why so many fans (in Cavs forums I look at) wont say anything critical of DM. Ever.
 

Shanemansj13

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This is how it looks to me, they seem to have stalled in their improvement/movement to a contender. Mobley was supposed to become THE GUY with guys like Garland and Allen and maybe Mitchell as a core of a contender. It just seems like this is the ceiling now. Can Mobley be better, sure, but he is no longer some emerging superstar like Antman or SGA.

The path from bad to contender looks like OKC or Minnesota, and even Indiana and Orlando look like they are one piece away with each having potential superstars (Haliburton, Banchero). It doesn't feel like it's going to happen for Cleveland here, one reason why we don't hear from @WiggyRuss anymore with the giant posts about every detail of the team. He knows.
Can’t disagree. Mobley is more of a great defender type that could transform his offensive game eventually but more as just a nice, valuable piece.

Not that I want them to trade him but would the Nets do Bridges for Mobley + whatever….
 

dtgold88

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He is on a bad knee. All series. Even in the regular season you could tell he wasn’t himself
OK....and Garland likely still having the effects of his broken jaw and has a bad back.

amazing the excuses our fans will make for Mitchell. That said, I can appreciate he never makes them, is an adult and owns when he struggles. Mobley clearly not himself and hobbled in 2nd half. Can he use it as an excuse, too (still was elite on D)?
 

msgkings322

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Can’t disagree. Mobley is more of a great defender type that could transform his offensive game eventually but more as just a nice, valuable piece.

Not that I want them to trade him but would the Nets do Bridges for Mobley + whatever….
And is Bridges enough, will he be a #1 on a title team level? They can still make moves I just think that for a couple years you could look at this team and see forward progress and a path to contending, now it feels like they are stalled with other young bad teams turning the corner and passing them. Hence Wiggy's absence.
 

dtgold88

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Well the Embiid issue isn’t his play, it’s bc he is ALWAYS hurt when they need him most. If you build around Mitchell the right way, you can be a clear contender. I believe that. Their two small guards, two non-stretch bigs is really not ideal.
while I said I agreed with fighten, I guess what you said has some merit, too....we need to remember while they may not be an ideal grouping they have won a lot of games together and other than Mitchell the rest of core 4 are 2-6 or so years from prime seasons.

How far can we go if Mitchell remains the top player? Not sure....but also not impossible to add a stud wing.
 

Shanemansj13

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This is actually factually incorrect. He could use some work from 10-16 feet but he has gotten a lot better from 3-10 feet going from 38% as a rookie to 41% to 46% rate this season. He's slightly better from 0-3 feet than as a rookie but came down there since last season. 3 point rate has gone up a ton...now just needs to be able to take them more (as you kind of mentioned) and still remain in the 37% range.

as mentioned, similar year 3 season to Giannis....highly unlikely he reaches his level overall of course, but Giannis still not exactly a proficient shooter. Mobley could still reach a nance, sr. level as he's only 23 (Nance also could not shoot earlier in his career).

Just talking shooting with that last comment.....love nance and a great player, but hopefully overall Mobley exceeds his level and we need him to.
His 3 fga went down. What good is that?

I guess you aren’t grasping what I am saying. You won’t improve if your volume doesn’t go up. So his 3 pt % improved but he is taking them the same or less. 1 a game. Okay? That is a key factor in improving, willing to take the shot and be comfortable. 1-7 in the playoffs. You can’t make them, if you don’t try. Just saying.

It great he is more efficient around the rim dunking the ball and layups. Lots of bigs can do it. He has a baby hook but the thing is he is very inconsistent demanding the ball. This what I am saying.
 

Shanemansj13

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OK....and Garland likely still having the effects of his broken jaw and has a bad back.

amazing the excuses our fans will make for Mitchell. That said, I can appreciate he never makes them, is an adult and owns when he struggles. Mobley clearly not himself and hobbled in 2nd half. Can he use it as an excuse, too (still was elite on D)?
No excuses for Garland LOL.

Is a broken jaw 3-4 months ago the same as a bad knee? Not even close.

Keep making excuses for Garland. We know who he is, you just can’t accept it.
 

dtgold88

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This is how it looks to me, they seem to have stalled in their improvement/movement to a contender. Mobley was supposed to become THE GUY with guys like Garland and Allen and maybe Mitchell as a core of a contender. It just seems like this is the ceiling now. Can Mobley be better, sure, but he is no longer some emerging superstar like Antman or SGA.

The path from bad to contender looks like OKC or Minnesota, and even Indiana and Orlando look like they are one piece away with each having potential superstars (Haliburton, Banchero). It doesn't feel like it's going to happen for Cleveland here, one reason why we don't hear from @WiggyRuss anymore with the giant posts about every detail of the team. He knows.
last comment first....to be fair, wiggy has at times been most pessimistic about where this team can go each season or in long run last 2-3 years.

a lot of what you say is true and you might end up spot on.....but cannot be dismissed Allen, Garland and Mobley are 2-4 or even 5 years from their prime seasons (Allen the lower end).

Mobley definitely no superstar or looking like he will be one......but does seem like big guys often take longer.
 

dtgold88

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The team shot under 30% for the series from 3. Allen has been the best player up until game 5. Mitchell can’t even run. Guys gotta step up. They are lucky to be in this series as bad as they played.

If this was the Knicks, Sixers, etc. the series would be over
Not so sure about Philly but agree we could not beat NY.

You sure like to make excuses for Mitchell but the guy seemed to be running just fine throughout most of the series. Make excuses if you want, but he was, in fact, carried by his teammates to game 2 and 5 wins.

what might help us look better and beat an upper level team would be if Mitchell could play like he's capable more often and I really hope he does. But also willing to be objective and point out when he struggles. He wont see it...I promise.
 

dtgold88

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Can’t disagree. Mobley is more of a great defender type that could transform his offensive game eventually but more as just a nice, valuable piece.

Not that I want them to trade him but would the Nets do Bridges for Mobley + whatever….
be interesting but have a feeling within a year or 2 we'd regret that. a little concerning Bridges maybe puts up numbers for a bad team.

I mean, put Mobley on that team instead and I think he's a 20-12 guy (same if he was on Utah instead of LM)
 

msgkings322

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last comment first....to be fair, wiggy has at times been most pessimistic about where this team can go each season or in long run last 2-3 years.

a lot of what you say is true and you might end up spot on.....but cannot be dismissed Allen, Garland and Mobley are 2-4 or even 5 years from their prime seasons (Allen the lower end).

Mobley definitely no superstar or looking like he will be one......but does seem like big guys often take longer.
And I have no problem with a fan seeing the glass half full. It's not impossible that this group becomes a contender. Just seems like they are falling short right now on the development path, to a neutral observer. It's really hard for small markets and non-FA destinations to thread that needle. Milwaukee and Denver did it with an all time great superstar. Minnesota may have done it, OKC may have done it, Cleveland it just feels like it's not happening here.

When your main frontrunner senses the problem and bails, that's a sign.
 

dtgold88

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His 3 fga went down. What good is that?

I guess you aren’t grasping what I am saying. You won’t improve if your volume doesn’t go up. So his 3 pt % improved but he is taking them the same or less. 1 a game. Okay? That is a key factor in improving, willing to take the shot and be comfortable. 1-7 in the playoffs. You can’t make them, if you don’t try. Just saying.

It great he is more efficient around the rim dunking the ball and layups. Lots of bigs can do it. He has a baby hook but the thing is he is very inconsistent demanding the ball. This what I am saying.
His attempts went down by a whopping 1 per game. Could be because he has some better teammates around him? In fact, he did improve with his volume not going up as he's a much more efficient shooter so that's another factually incorrect comment.

But I can definitely agree he needs to be more aggressive....as to game 6 is he allowed to use the injury excuse like you want to use for DM? He's also been a lot better from 3-10 feet so the "around the rim" comments are also a bit misleading.

Again we are on same page about demanding ball and being more aggressive....and he usually is pretty good in crunch time when he shoots.
 

dtgold88

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No excuses for Garland LOL.

Is a broken jaw 3-4 months ago the same as a bad knee? Not even close.

Keep making excuses for Garland. We know who he is, you just can’t accept it.
Garland also has a bad back, but the good thing is we don't need to make excuses for him as other than 1 game he has played well. Been an efficient shooter and passer. TOs have come down some. Only area you could complain about him is he needs to be more selfish shooting.

Just an FYI.....I'm not making excuses for Garland. Just saying IF you want to make them for Mitchell they could be made for Garland as well....but, again, the good news is he's playing well enough not to need to make excuses for him. He even held Mitchell's hand throughout a game 5 win.
 
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