10,000 Posts for a Flyers Cup in 2019

[awaz]

You did a lot of work here so i owe you a response. We have to agree to disagree here. I never liked him as a player as he is and always will be a one trick pony and i certainly dont like the contract of 5 years we gave him.

I'm fine with not liking him. But he's a good player, that is undeniable. I will take a one trick pony that scores goals over a 4th line PK-er that hits people and brings energy. That's why guys that score goals get paid big money and energy guys don't (or at least don't by competent GMs)

And I love energy guys. Absolutely nothing against them and I 100% agree they're needed on a hockey team. But if it's one or the other, I'm taking the goal scorer every single time.

 

[lasgop8]

I'm fine with not liking him. But he's a good player, that is undeniable. I will take a one trick pony that scores goals over a 4th line PK-er that hits people and brings energy. That's why guys that score goals get paid big money and energy guys don't (or at least don't by competent GMs)

And I love energy guys. Absolutely nothing against them and I 100% agree they're needed on a hockey team. But if it's one or the other, I'm taking the goal scorer every single time.

This line of thinking is why we haven't won a playoff series in years. If you add to something you dont need and dont fix what you do need you have early playoff exits.

 

[Chris p Bacon]

JvR with the Leafs
17-18: 36 goals (would have been 1st on the Flyers) / 54 points (5th)
16-17: 29 goals (2nd) / 62 points (1st)
15-16*: 29 goals (2nd) / 60 points (T2nd)
14-15: 27 goals (2nd) / 56 points (3rd)
13-14: 30 goals (1st) / 61 points (3rd)
12-13**: 18 goals (2nd) / 32 points (T3rd)

*only played half the season, extrapolated his production
** lockout season

Hate him all you like, but..

#1 - Please don't bring that "one year" nonsense to the argument. If JvR had been on the Flyers over the past 6 years, statistically he would've been the Flyers 2nd best offensive player. Consistently. And he would have finished no worse than 2nd in goals in any of those 6 years.

#2 - He missed 45 games total out of the 458 possible regular season games played in Toronto. 42 of which came in 15-16 where he broke his foot. So the 'soft' or 'injury prone' nonsense can be left at home too. Aside from a broken foot, he missed 3 games over 6 years. Our beloved beacon of toughness, Wayne Simmonds, missed 47 games over the same time frame.

#3 - He was the 2nd best player in free agency this year. The stats make that a fact. If Tavares didn't want to come here, which he didn't, Hextall literally could not have possibly done better.

I get not liking his game. He plays too much on the perimeter, doesn't hit anybody, so on and so forth. But the guy puts up points and is a GOOD hockey player. The hate he gets on here is ridiculous IMO. You're literally hating the 2nd or 3rd best offensive player on the team because he doesn't throw enough hits. That's insane. I like good physical hockey and big hits as much as the next guy. But goals win games, not hits. I'll take a goal over a hit every single game of the schedule.

I may be a little over critical of some of his play, but most of those stats you listed he played top tier minutes on shitty to average teams. He's not going to get top PP time, you nailed it in your post though, for his size he plays on the paramiter too much when he should be a physical net presence. Also his fore check is weak, like you said he doesn't engage to much in contact. I hope he works out for us but as of now I'm a skeptic. I'll def give him the 2nd half of the season for further judgement as he is gone for awhile. But since he will be limited to a half a season what should the expectations be?

 

[Chris p Bacon]

Regardless of who plays, we have been exposed at a few different areas so hope we can get that fixed first and foremost.

 

[awaz]

This line of thinking is why we haven't won a playoff series in years. If you add to something you dont need and dont fix what you do need you have early playoff exits.

So while I will agree scoring wasn't their major need, I wouldn't dismiss it completely. They weren't setting the world on fire offensively either.

Major stats last season:

13th in goals for
16th in goals against
15th in PP%
29th in PK%
9th in EV goals for
21th in EV goals against
24th in SV%


Obviously the PK was terrible.

Not firing Lappy was Hextall's biggest mistake this offseason IMO. He should've been fired 2 years ago.​

EV goals against and SV% were also bad. Indicating that they needed better defense and better goaltending. Which we all agree on.

But Stanley Cup contenders would do well to improve on all those numbers, not just the worst ones. JvR was an opportunity to address a 'non-cup contender' level of production without subtracting from the current team, and Hextall took it.

 

[awaz]

I may be a little over critical of some of his play, but most of those stats you listed he played top tier minutes on shitty to average teams. He's not going to get top PP time, you nailed it in your post though, for his size he plays on the paramiter too much when he should be a physical net presence. Also his fore check is weak, like you said he doesn't engage to much in contact. I hope he works out for us but as of now I'm a skeptic. I'll def give him the 2nd half of the season for further judgement as he is gone for awhile. But since he will be limited to a half a season what should the expectations be?

Looks like he'll probably miss 15-18 games total for this injury if the 5-6 week project is correct. So if he's healthy other than this, he should get at least 64 games. His past 5 seasons he's averaged about .36 goals per game. I don't expect he'll see much PP1 time, so that'll probably bring it down a bit, but he should still be able to get 20 goals this year IMO. And I think that's conservative, as you mentioned most of his stats with Toronto were playing with a garbage team, which means garbage linemates. He'll have better support here than he had in most of his time in Toronto, and he put up .44 gpg with a better team last year, which would have him at 28. So taking into account the lack of PP1 time, i'd say 22-24 goals still for JvR this year.

And if he's healthy in the playoffs he helps the Flyers create a mismatch with depth.

 

[lasgop8]

If you look at the two Stanley cup teams Hexy put together in LA everyone was big, nobody scored over 80 points ,excellent goalie, good defense, solid PK. We got him to recreate that here except in Philly we are small, have all scorers, no goalie and the worst PK i've seen in years and not the greatest defense. Did we need to add another scorer for as long as 5 years instead of addressing our needs?

 

[awaz]

If you look at the two Stanley cup teams Hexy put together in LA everyone was big, nobody scored over 80 points ,excellent goalie, good defense, solid PK. We got him to recreate that here except in Philly we are small, have all scorers, no goalie and the worst PK i've seen in years and not the greatest defense. Did we need to add another scorer for as long as 5 years instead of addressing our needs?

Did we? I thought we got Hextall here to win cups. Lots of ways to win the cup. The Pens sure as shit haven't done it through big, defense first guys. The Caps don't do it through big, defense first. The Knights got there last year by outskating everyone, not punishing them physically. They even took out the big bad Kings, and the NHL's new big/bad boys the Jets on their way to the Final last year.

 

[JBM73]

The league has been evolving towards a smaller, faster game since the heyday of the Kings. I don't think going back to big, slow hockey is the answer. However, the Washington-Tampa and Washington-Vegas series showed that while you definitely need speed first, you also need to be at least big enough to not get pushed around. This year with the reduction in the size of goalie equipment that has been resulting in significant increased scoring, I see the trend towards speed picking up steam even more quickly.

 

[lasgop8]

Did we? I thought we got Hextall here to win cups. Lots of ways to win the cup. The Pens sure as shit haven't done it through big, defense first guys. The Caps don't do it through big, defense first. The Knights got there last year by outskating everyone, not punishing them physically. They even took out the big bad Kings, and the NHL's new big/bad boys the Jets on their way to the Final last year.

When we get players as good as Crosby Malking Letang you can compare us to their style. Caps have a cup as the biggest team in the league. Knights got there but didn't win a cup so they do not matter and yes Hexy was brought here to win cups that we are still waiting so patiently on.

 

[lasgop8]

The league has been evolving towards a smaller, faster game since the heyday of the Kings. I don't think going back to big, slow hockey is the answer. However, the Washington-Tampa and Washington-Vegas series showed that while you definitely need speed first, you also need to be at least big enough to not get pushed around. This year with the reduction in the size of goalie equipment that has been resulting in significant increased scoring, I see the trend towards speed picking up steam even faster.

Just because a player is big doesn't mean he is slow. As ive stated before the Caps won the cup with the biggest team in the league. Im looking to get players to fill our needs not a 3rd line left wing who can only score goals and do nothing else.

 

[Chris p Bacon]

Looks like he'll probably miss 15-18 games total for this injury if the 5-6 week project is correct. So if he's healthy other than this, he should get at least 64 games. His past 5 seasons he's averaged about .36 goals per game. I don't expect he'll see much PP1 time, so that'll probably bring it down a bit, but he should still be able to get 20 goals this year IMO. And I think that's conservative, as you mentioned most of his stats with Toronto were playing with a garbage team, which means garbage linemates. He'll have better support here than he had in most of his time in Toronto, and he put up .44 gpg with a better team last year, which would have him at 28. So taking into account the lack of PP1 time, i'd say 22-24 goals still for JvR this year.

And if he's healthy in the playoffs he helps the Flyers create a mismatch with depth.

You're def a better stats guy than me, so I hope your analysis is spot on, if he has that production I'll be the first to recognize it. I think he and Simmer are to similar and will have problems meshing.

 

[JBM73]

Just because a player is big doesn't mean he is slow. As ive stated before the Caps won the cup with the biggest team in the league. Im looking to get players to fill our needs not a 3rd line left wing with who can only score goals and do nothing else.

JVR is 6'3" and 215-220lbs. You wanted bigger, you got it. As someone who I remember wanting the Flyers to draft Julien Gauthier who is also big and was only known for scoring goals, your position on this confuses me.

 

[lasgop8]

JVR is 6'3" and 215-220lbs. You wanted bigger, you got it. As someone who I remember wanting the Flyers to draft Julien Gauthier who is also big and was only known for scoring goals, your position on this confuses me.

Maybe you are mistaken me for someone who is looking to only get bigger. I am looking for players to fill our needs no matter how big they are. Our needs include PK defense goaltending and size. None of which a third line one trick pony LW fills and even though he is 6'3 215 he didn't get the nickname big puss for no reason.

 

[awaz]

So las, of this list of guys that signed as free agents, where would you have spent your money? Assuming you have JvR's 7M/year to spend on these guys. You can't change their deals to benefit the Flyers because they obviously had at least these offers to choose from.

This is admittedly a pared down list of all the UFAs this year, but if you want to look through the full list, cap friendly is a great resource.

Colin Miller 4x3.875
TvR 2x2.3
de Haan 4x4.55
Manning 2x2.25
Statsny 3x6.5
Filpula 1x2.75
Beagle 4x3
Roussel 4x3
Komarov 4x3
Grabner 3x3.35
Neal 5x5.75
Kovalchuk 3x6.25
Bozak 3x5

Adding some goalies in for you:
Lehner 1x1.5
Ward 1x3
Halak 2x2.75
Bernier 3x3
Hutton 3x2.75

Edit: added a few skaters

 

[lasgop8]

So las, of this list of guys that signed as free agents, where would you have spent your money? Assuming you have JvR's 7M/year to spend on these guys. You can't change their deals to benefit the Flyers because they obviously had at least these offers to choose from.

This is admittedly a pared down list of all the UFAs this year, but if you want to look through the full list, cap friendly is a great resource.

Colin Miller 4x3.875
TvR 2x2.3
de Haan 4x4.55
Manning 2x2.25
Statsny 3x6.5
Filpula 1x2.75
Beagle 4x3
Roussel 4x3
Komarov 4x3
Grabner 3x3.35
Neal 5x5.75
Kovalchuk 3x6.25
Bozak 3x5
Hjallmarsson 3x5


Adding some goalies in for you:
Lehner 1x1.5
Ward 1x3
Halak 2x2.75
Bernier 3x3
Hutton 3x2.75

Edit: added a few skaters

Definatley sign Grabner , would've traded for Panarin to start, then go from there. A top 6 who scores and is always a plus player a sure fire penalty killer who could put up 20 goals just like JVR. And if we didn't have 6 goalies i could've dealt with Carter Hutton for three years until Hart is ready.

 

[awaz]

Definatley sign Grabner , would've traded for Panarin to start, then go from there. A top 6 who scores and is always a plus player a sure fire penalty killer who could put up 20 goals just like JVR. And if we didn't have 6 goalies i could've dealt with Carter Hutton for three years until Hart is ready.

Grabner. Ok, i'm cool with that.

Panarin, you gotta be kidding me man. Panarin had 5 minutes of SH time last year. Not per game, total. 5 minutes. He's got 9.5 minutes PKing for his career. And he's 5'11 - 168. He's not doing any more than JvR is physically or on the forecheck at 5-11 168. And you don't think the Flyers needed offense. He might be better than JvR offensively, but he brings absolutely nothing different than what JvR brings, except he costs picks and players instead of just money.

Not to mention trading takes 2 people, maybe CBJ pulled an Ottawa and refused to trade Panarin in the division regardless of if the Flyers offered a better deal. Plus the Flyers would have to give something up for him to make themselves weaker.

Hutton, I agree if they didn't have 6 goalies could've been an option.

 

[awaz]

May have misunderstood you a bit, Grabner is your PK guy.

But still, if you're argument against adding JvR is that we don't need offense and he doesn't bring anything else, you can't turn around and say we should've traded assets for Panarin.

 

[lasgop8]

Grabner. Ok, i'm cool with that.

Panarin, you gotta be kidding me man. Panarin had 5 minutes of SH time last year. Not per game, total. 5 minutes. He's got 9.5 minutes PKing for his career. And he's 5'11 - 168. He's not doing any more than JvR is physically or on the forecheck at 5-11 168. And you don't think the Flyers needed offense. He might be better than JvR offensively, but he brings absolutely nothing different than what JvR brings, except he costs picks and players instead of just money.

Not to mention trading takes 2 people, maybe CBJ pulled an Ottawa and refused to trade Panarin in the division regardless of if the Flyers offered a better deal. Plus the Flyers would have to give something up for him to make themselves weaker.

Hutton, I agree if they didn't have 6 goalies could've been an option.

Ok so no Panarin: Here is some stats for you that you are saying the goal scorers get paid:
Just Grabner alone makes us a better team than having JVR.

Grabner has 27 goals in consecutive years and is plus 33 in those two years plus a great penalty killer.
They both came into the league in 2009-10 and Grabner has 158 goals and JVR only has 154. So now AWAZ will you please explain to me why did we sign a third line LW for 5 years at more money instead of a penalty killer who is plus 33 in the last two years who makes less money ?

 

[raptorlife4]

Nolan Patrick out 7-10 days with upper body injury