Game Thread: Cavs @ Spurs

[Hornsstampede2.0]

BOSH was an elite defender.
He helped Lebron on the defensive side.
Yes, he was somewhat diminished on the offensive side. But, Bosh flourished defensively with Lebron.

Lebron looks ever so slightly diminished with Cleveland because he has to spend so much darn time playing defense to bail out his big men with defensive help.

That made Miami great. Bosh could defend. He did not need Lebrons help.
Bosh's defensive job on Tim Duncan was the reason they won in 2013. Nobody gave him credit.

Love and TT are not even close.
Both are well below average defenders with Love maybe being the worst in the entire league.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Yep.

They want him to be a stretch 4 exclusively.

He can knock that shot done, easily.

But, that's not his comfort zone and is a waste of his abilities.

Here's the thing: He knew what he was signing up for.

They did try to get him involved more early in the Season.

But, when the going gets tough, they revert back to him being an afterthought.

obviously you guys have not bee nwatching Love for the majority of the season as he has been Posting up a TON this year compared to last year and has some of the best post-numbers in the league right now.

when Love and Thompso nare playing together they just had a stat where they are basically the 4th most efficient defense in the league.

 

[gordontrue]

Love isn't taking any more 3's (compared to 2's) than he did in his best years in MIN. This topic gets seriously overblown every single time Love has a down game.

I've watched every minute of every Cavs game this season and while there's some truth in what's said about him on this forum... it is being WAY overstated, IMO.

Yes, he takes 3's... and he's quite good at them for his position. He also posts up and takes mid jumpers and drives and cleans up on the glass. He often uses 1 to open up the other. In the 1st quarter last night he hit an early 3. A couple possessions later he had a look at a 3... Aldridge closed out hard... Love pump faked then drove in and scored.

Because he's now on a team with 2-3 other very capable scorers... his scoring opportunities aren't going to be what they were in Minnesota. He's going to have some games where he's the focal point of the offense, and others where he isn't at all.

His help defense and rotation to cutters has been pretty bad at times... but his man-to-man post defense is underrated.

I'm not one to be afraid to point out flaws with the Cavs and my worriers about them... but, honestly, Love is the least of my concerns.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Love isn't taking any more 3's (compared to 2's) than he did in his best years in MIN. This topic gets seriously overblown every single time Love has a down game.

I've watched every minute of every Cavs game this season and while there's some truth in what's said about him on this forum... it is being WAY overstated, IMO.

Yes, he takes 3's... and he's quite good at them for his position. He also posts up and takes mid jumpers and drives and cleans up on the glass. He often uses 1 to open up the other. In the 1st quarter last night he hit an early 3. A couple possessions later he had a look at a 3... Aldridge closed out hard... Love pump faked then drove in and scored.

Because he's now on a team with 2-3 other very capable scorers... his scoring opportunities aren't going to be what they were in Minnesota. He's going to have some games where he's the focal point of the offense, and others where he isn't at all.

His help defense and rotation to cutters has been pretty bad at times... but his man-to-man post defense is underrated.

I'm not one to be afraid to point out flaws with the Cavs and my worriers about them... but, honestly, Love is the least of my concerns.

I actually really agree with that - especially with the defensive comments. Love has actually played some pretty good post defense from what I have seen--- he gets into trouble when he gets put in the pick and roll- and there is confusion as to whether to switch, go under the pick, or go over it etc......that Parker play was a perfect example where he hit the jumper from the bottom corner with that hesitation move....Love acted like he was switching- Kyrie executed the switch playing off Love's commitment- and then Love just kinda let Parker go and didnt even attempt to close out.

I wish they would have gone under the Parker picks more - at least early- and make him make some long-range outside shots- if he does- good for him and maybe start going over them---- butat LEAST havea plan on those and commit to it- and i dont think the CAvs did a good job of that--- i get it- they dont want to double off a 3pt shooter and give the Spurs an open look- but if a guy gets hot you gotta make an adjustment.

 

[bksballer89]

Lmao @ cavs fans trying to say 41% shooting is now good....especially for a power forward.

Just wow.

 

[bksballer89]

You can't make this up.

 

[gordontrue]

Lmao @ cavs fans trying to say 41% shooting is now good....especially for a power forward.

Just wow.

Who said that?

His 2-pt% hasn't been great this year, but its really not as awful as you make it sound for the way he plays (and has always played) his position. He's usually been between 48-50% throughout his career from 2. Last year he was 48. This year (not yet half-way through the season)... he's at 46.

His eFG% is at 49.5... exactly on par with his career eFG%.

 

[gordontrue]

You can't make this up.

I know you watch a lot of actual games and have probably seen a lot more of the Cavs than most of the posters on here... and generally you give really level-headed analysis, imo. I definitely respect and consider your opinions.

I just don't honestly see anything to be alarmed about with Love. I was worried about his integration last year at this time. Its so much better than that right now.

 

[WiggyRuss]

your right

you just cant make this stuff up


Tom Haberstroh Verified account ‏@tomhaberstroh
Hassan Whiteside ranks 35th among 36 qualified players in post-up efficiency (min. 50 plays). He's 0.697 pts/play. Kevin Love 1st at 1.268.



WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! WHAT?!!!

just for emphasis

Tom Haberstroh Verified account ‏@tomhaberstroh
Hassan Whiteside ranks 35th among 36 qualified players in post-up efficiency (min. 50 plays). He's 0.697 pts/play. Kevin Love 1st at 1.268.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Bosh shot way less 3's with Lebron than Love is doing. Nearly half of Love shots are 3's

That's true. It's easy to forget about Bosh, he was often seen as an easy target during the Heat's championship run. At the time of his signing he was seen as one of the best bigs in the league and one of the few players capable of putting a bad team on his back and winning a game. That is a quality we haven't seen from Kyrie consistently and rarely seen from Love throughout their careers. That may be the biggest difference between these Cleveland teams and those Miami teams. Miami had 3 players capable of carrying a team, if one was having an off night, another could always lift the team past the goal line.

I doubt this Cleveland team can win against the Spurs or Warriors in a series, even at full health. Just the way I see it as of now.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Who said that?

His 2-pt% hasn't been great this year, but its really not as awful as you make it sound for the way he plays (and has always played) his position. He's usually been between 48-50% throughout his career from 2. Last year he was 48. This year (not yet half-way through the season)... he's at 46.

His eFG% is at 49.5... exactly on par with his career eFG%.

please dont try and explain things like eFG% (or true shooting)- it gets way over their heads.

 

[WiggyRuss]

That's true. It's easy to forget about Bosh, he was often seen as an easy target during the Heat's championship run. At the time of his signing he was seen as one of the best bigs in the league and one of the few players capable of putting a bad team on his back and winning a game. That is a quality we haven't seen from Kyrie consistently and rarely seen from Love throughout their careers. That may be the biggest difference between these Cleveland teams and those Miami teams. Miami had 3 players capable of carrying a team, if one was having an off night, another could always lift the team past the goal line.

I doubt this Cleveland team can win against the Spurs or Warriors in a series, even at full health. Just the way I see it as of now.

what did Bosh do to prove he could carry a team? As far as i remember- i think he has 2 playoff wins without LeBron...NOT SERIES WINS- games won--- lol.--- what was the HEats record when Bosh went down last year? 500? --- what their record this y ear? like 6th in the EAst and like 5 games over 500? forgive me but it sure seems like that is NOT EXACTLY the franchise guy you want to hitch your wagons too.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

what did Bosh do to prove he could carry a team? As far as i remember- i think he has 2 playoff wins without LeBron...NOT SERIES WINS- games won--- lol.--- what was the HEats record when Bosh went down last year? 500? --- what their record this y ear? like 6th in the EAst and like 5 games over 500? forgive me but it sure seems like that is NOT EXACTLY the franchise guy you want to hitch your wagons too.

Still more than Love and Irving combined without LeBron. Dwayne Wade was doing everything for the Heat in the playoffs before Bosh/James arrived. You cannot tell me that at the time they were assembled that those Heat teams were not a lot more formidable than the Cavs.

 

[bksballer89]

Still more than Love and Irving combined without LeBron. Dwayne Wade was doing everything for the Heat in the playoffs before Bosh/James arrived. You cannot tell me that at the time they were assembled that those Heat teams were not a lot more formidable than the Cavs.

Wiggy nickname is denial

 

[WiggyRuss]

That's true. It's easy to forget about Bosh, he was often seen as an easy target during the Heat's championship run. At the time of his signing he was seen as one of the best bigs in the league and one of the few players capable of putting a bad team on his back and winning a game. That is a quality we haven't seen from Kyrie consistently and rarely seen from Love throughout their careers. That may be the biggest difference between these Cleveland teams and those Miami teams. Miami had 3 players capable of carrying a team, if one was having an off night, another could always lift the team past the goal line.

I doubt this Cleveland team can win against the Spurs or Warriors in a series, even at full health. Just the way I see it as of now.

a

Wiggy nickname is denial

i just like how i totally made you look foolish with that Haberstoh tweet---- and that guy is an unabashed Heat apologist....

if there is one thing I have learned in the course of getting my Juris Doctorate - is that if you have the facts on your side- and can effectively back them up - and can tell a story with them- you are in good shape.

When you can quote an NBA reporter that shows how DAMN GOOD LOVE HAS BEEN IN THE POST this year- DIRECTLY AFTER someone foolishly tries to say otherwise- that is pretty damn awesome.

As is usual...time and patience vindicate once again- along with the ability to find AND PRESENT effectively, good facts.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Still more than Love and Irving combined without LeBron. Dwayne Wade was doing everything for the Heat in the playoffs before Bosh/James arrived. You cannot tell me that at the time they were assembled that those Heat teams were not a lot more formidable than the Cavs.

LeBron left because he simply was not getting that help anymore. I mean- did you watch that Finals against hte Spurs where Wade pooped down his leg and Bosh refused to play physical at all- while both guys started getting up their in age?

Only a fool would take Bosh and Wade over Love and Irving at this point in their careers- and LeBron is no fool.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Love didnt play a great game last night though- i was excited at the beginning when he had 5 really quick points- but they want away from him.

The facts are - that now that Kyrie and Shumpert are back- the CAvs have to adjust things again and find that proper balance that was causing Love to play so well up until Irving came back. When you have to re-acclimate Irving and get him up to speed- along with getting Shumpert in- there are going to be some setbacks before Blatt and the team figure it out. Luckily for the Cavs- they just went on their longest road trip of the year and have a chance to finish it out at 5-1 and have a very very succesful road trip. I hope its not lost on anyone that the LAST TIME the Spurs lost at home- it was the Cavs doing it.

 

[bksballer89]

LeBron left because he simply was not getting that help anymore. I mean- did you watch that Finals against hte Spurs where Wade pooped down his leg and Bosh refused to play physical at all- while both guys started getting up their in age?

Only a fool would take Bosh and Wade over Love and Irving at this point in their careers- and LeBron is no fool.

@OutlawImmortal clearly stated "AT THE TIME THEY WERE ASSEMBLED" I said last year and I'll say it again now. I would take the Heat teams from 2012 & 2013 ahead of the Cavs teams from last season and this year. And as for the big 3, I would take Bosh & Wade of 2011, 2012, & 2013 over Kyrie and love from last year and this

He is not talking about now.

 

[WiggyRuss]

@OutlawImmortal clearly stated "AT THE TIME THEY WERE ASSEMBLED"

He is not talking about now.

I get that- but how is it even relevant?

Of course Wade and Bosh- DIRECTLY SMACK DAB IN THE MIDDLE OF THEIR PRIMES- when they came together- made a very formidable 3-some- however- how long was it before Wade started going downhill?

Kyrie and Love have not even REACHED their prime years yet. If you are trying to ask the question of what Big 3 was better at their height- its an impossible question to ask while Kevin Love is 27 and Kyrie Irving is 23.

not only that- but i think Heat fans would readily agree- that the Cavs supporting cast- Thompson, Shumpert, Mozgov, etc. etc.- is superior to any supporting cast the Heat had.

 

[bksballer89]

I get that- but how is it even relevant?

Of course Wade and Bosh- DIRECTLY SMACK DAB IN THE MIDDLE OF THEIR PRIMES- when they came together- made a very formidable 3-some- however- how long was it before Wade started going downhill?

Kyrie and Love have not even REACHED their prime years yet. If you are trying to ask the question of what Big 3 was better at their height- its an impossible question to ask while Kevin Love is 27 and Kyrie Irving is 23.

not only that- but i think Heat fans would readily agree- that the Cavs supporting cast- Thompson, Shumpert, Mozgov, etc. etc.- is superior to any supporting cast the Heat had.

Wade didn't start going downhill really until 2014. He took a back seat to Lebron in 2012 but still played at a high level in 2012 and 2013 even though shot attempts went down.
Love is not in his prime yet? How? He is 27 years old and in his 8th season. When will he reach is prime? When he's 35 and in his 16th season?