The John Stockton Thread

[MHSL82]

And where do you rank "stopping the other team" in terms of priority?

It's number one, I'm just not interested in it, especially the individual player's stats or play (save Stockton's steals). I'm not that sophisticated, especially on defense.

 

[nuraman00]

We're both robots because good things come in pairs, like John Stockton and Diet Pepsi; or Karl Malone, and Hardees fried chicken; or Jerry Sloan, and getting seven game suspensions for pushing Courtney Kirkland in the chest; or your kids and the secret nicknames you have for your kids (Skittles and M&M's; or Skittles and Reeses Pieces; or Skittles and Butterfinger BBs'; or Skittles and Cadbury Gems; or whatever secret nickname you gave your second embryo, can you share what it was? ).


We're both robots because good things come in pairs, and since you're a robot, you need a robot friend, so I'm your robot friend.

If I didn't know about the commercials I would have thought the pairs were: John Stockton and Karl Malone; Hardees and Diet Pepsi, or Jerry Sloan and John Deere tractors. Or Courtney Kirkland and Kirkney Courtland.


Yes, I can share the secret nickname my wife and I gave my second embryo. She had the first, so the second is all mine!

The placeholder name is Amore - for two reasons. One it involves letters that we wanted, not necessarily names but mean something and not necessarily in order. Second, we wanted it to mean love or something good (Skittles, the one we used for our first daughter, was phonetic - check your Facebook if you want to see it). However, the word "love" is overused when it comes to these type of placeholder names (or so said somebody I know). The word in my wife's language is too few letters and I couldn't get one that could not also mean "lover", not good. So we had to choose another language: Italian. Amore means love in Italian, obviously. I thought the song would catch on, but it never did for us. The lyrics are not significant, but take a look at the description for them if you are interested. (You have to go to YouTube to see it by clicking the YouTube sign on the player to see the description.)

The usual pairs involving your kids would be Skittles and Amore; or MHSL82 and Mrs. MHSL82; or Mrs. MHSL82 and Skittles; MHSL82 and Amore.

But since you liked my creative ones from earlier (I think you liked them), here are the creative pairs involving your kids:

Skittles and falling down, or Skittles and accidentally getting hurt.

Amore and pretending to be a boy. (I could post a YouTube of a random kid doing pretending to be a boy, but can't do that right now, will find one later. It will probably involve someone pretending to go to the bathroom like her brother). (Also I'll watch your YouTube then too, since I will have committed myself to spending time on YouTube, so watching your clip will fall into that allotted time).

 

[nuraman00]

Game 1 was one of the best playoffs games I've ever seen.

* Indiana never lead by more than 7; Miami never lead by more than 5.

* Both teams were playing good defense and offense. Indiana moved the ball really well the whole time. There weren't any possessions where I thought the ball stuck. I thought they might have a few slow possessions, but they never did. They are confident and execute well.

Their players know what they're doing.

Nice job Vogel.

As for the last few plays of game 1, I understand the decision to take Hibbert out.

With Battier/Bosh/Cole/Allen/James, you don't want to give up a James layup. But you don't want a Bosh jumper, or Allen or Battier 3's either. All of those guys can make the shots they were designed to make. So if Hibbert was there, and Bosh had an open look, that's just as bad, as I think any of those guys could have made an open look.

The answer is that Paul George has to do a better job with his perimeter defense. He can't let James have such a wide driving lane.

So it's not so much as to whether Hibbert should have been there, but it's on George for giving up the driving lane, and not forcing a worse shot.

And then of course you had a GW at the end, and an OT game, and Paul George making some tough but necessary shots.

Game 2 as also good. Neither team had too big of a lead, and again, I thought it was well-played.

James defense has disappointed me a lot this series. He's defending the weak side of the ball most of the time, outside of a possession here or there on West or George Hill.

They're using James more as a roving team defender. That's not as effective, IMO.

I want to see James defend Paul George. The two best players guarding each other. I understand not wanting James to get in foul trouble, but at least start him out on George. James didn't even defend George in the 4th quarter.

Miami's defense could have been even better had they had James on George. Or maybe George would have had even more good plays. Who knows. But that's the kind of thing I want to see.

I think you know where I'm coming from. I'm used to seeing Kidd or Payton or Stockton guard each other for the entire game. Or, Hinrich's 1st game ever vs. Baron Davis was another favorite. A rookie PG vs. a vet, and even though Davis had a great game, I liked seeing Hinrich compete and stay with it the whole time, not get discouraged. I think was a sign that Hinrich would be a solid defender for his career.

So I don't give James much credit for his defense, if all he's going to do is be a help defender.


Hibbert has been fun to watch as well. There's lots of intriguing matchups in this series. West vs. Bosh is another.

 

[MHSL82]

So, my count is Mark Jackson and Byron Scott for coaches I don't like. I would have liked Jackson if he wasn't bad to Stockton. I don't care what you read, he was.

I don't like Bruce Bowen because that's not my style (dirty) and I don't like bowties. I don't care how dirty Stockton and Malone was, they are obviously an exception for me and they are better than Bowen. No, talent doesn't excuse dirtiness, being a Jazz player does.

I don't like Duncan as a PF, but I like him as a person (despite his marriage trouble) and I like him as a center. If they had called him a center, I wouldn't have ever built this non-like for him as a PF (not dislike). Again, I respect him, but his stats are worse than Malone's and declining. We've discussed the pros and cons, the supporting cast, the defense vs. offense, the touches, the passing, the minutes, the coaching, etc. There's an argument both ways, but only mine is right. I have no argument against him as a center. People do think he's classier and fundamentaler than he is because of his big eyes and they ignore his whining.

But I don't dislike Duncan. I dislike KG, all of him. But that's the same as Bowen (not dirty, but attitude) and Duncan (I know he did a lot, but I felt sometimes it was over-valued). I did root for him in Minnesota when not playing against us. Couldn't stand him in Boston because it was only then when I learned of his on-court persona.

And Fisher! I dislike him as a player, person, and player representative. Don't think I need to go over this again. If you wish to be reminded, check out the same thread (I think) as the Duncan conversation.

 

[nuraman00]

So, my count is Mark Jackson and Byron Scott for coaches I don't like. I would have liked Jackson if he wasn't bad to Stockton. I don't care what you read, he was.

I don't like Bruce Bowen because that's not my style (dirty) and I don't like bowties. I don't care how dirty Stockton and Malone was, they are obviously an exception for me and they are better than Bowen. No, talent doesn't excuse dirtiness, being a Jazz player does.

I don't like Duncan as a PF, but I like him as a person (despite his marriage trouble) and I like him as a center. If they had called him a center, I wouldn't have ever built this non-like for him as a PF (not dislike). Again, I respect him, but his stats are worse than Malone's and declining. We've discussed the pros and cons, the supporting cast, the defense vs. offense, the touches, the passing, the minutes, the coaching, etc. There's an argument both ways, but only mine is right. I have no argument against him as a center. People do think he's classier and fundamentaler than he is because of his big eyes and they ignore his whining.

But I don't dislike Duncan. I dislike KG, all of him. But that's the same as Bowen (not dirty, but attitude) and Duncan (I know he did a lot, but I felt sometimes it was over-valued). I did root for him in Minnesota when not playing against us. Couldn't stand him in Boston because it was only then when I learned of his on-court persona.

And Fisher! I dislike him as a player, person, and player representative. Don't think I need to go over this again. If you wish to be reminded, check out the same thread (I think) as the Duncan conversation.

Was anyone considering Bowen, Duncan, Garnett, or Fisher as possible head coaches for 2013-2014?

 

[MHSL82]

Hyping up Hornacek as a coach a little too much. There is nothing appealing about him as a coach, other than the fact that Malone played with him.

He wasn't a highly sought assistant. 26 other teams wouldn't have hired him if they had a choice. Most wouldn't have even interviewed him.

Phoenix basically made a move to sell tickets to fans, who would think that "hey, he used to be a good player, maybe he'll make a good coach!" It was a cheap hire from a not highly sought after coach. If the Suns were serious about a coach, they would have hired someone other teams actually want too, or a veteran coach.

I'd say the same thing if Hornacek was hired by the Jazz. It was designed to sell hope. There were a lot of better options out there.

Hornacek wasn't highly regarded. He isn't going to come up with an innovative offense or defense, an will probably stick with something basic that fits his team.

Where's the hype? I looked over the thread and in other threads and didn't find any. Who's hyping him?

I'm not a Suns fan so what do I care? Oh, and I wasn't hyping the Hornacek hire. I was just happy for him. If I hyped it, I would have wished out loud for him to have gone to Milwaukee so that we didn't have to play his team so much.

Having said that, I won't say anything further to judge him before he coaches. I don't blame him for not being highly sought, highly regarded. He was sought, hired, and now will have a chance to show himself. Most teams aren't hiring, he was interviewed at a few that were last year and who knows if he turned down others and if he turned down some this year knowing Phoenix was interested.

He has to start somewhere and he did have some success independent of Malone and Stockton. He wasn't the best, but he held his own for the type of player he was (20 points in Phoenix, consistently 14+, great three point shooter. White. ) Not crossing my fingers, but my loyalty will remain with him, as long as we hire someone eventually over Corbin. I hope he does better than expected because better than expected doesn't mean beating us. I'm not going to bet on him, just rather see him coach than someone else I don't care about on a team I don't care about.

 

[nuraman00]

Kidd's defense stopped being good in New Jersey. I don't know what day that was.

Stockton was still a good defender on his last day.

 

[nuraman00]

According to the YouTube author, "Malone took exception to the manner in which Byron Scott separated Jazz guard John Crotty and Nets forward Kenyon Martin -- who were involved in a scrum for a loose ball on the floor (1:07-mark) . Malone responded by firmly guiding/pushing Scott back towards the New Jersey bench, resulting in Dick Bavetta, Jerry Sloan and the cavalry rushing in to separate everyone before the situation could escalate further.

The incident appeared to incite Malone - who erupted in the 3rd-qtr. In a 5-min stretch, Malone exploded for 12 points including a:
-facial dunk on Todd McCullough (1:59-mark)
-3pt-play over Keith Van Horn (2:33-mark)
-fastbreak hammer dunk (2:42-mark)
-3pt-play off pick&roll (3:00-mark)"

Malone was defending a teammate. Not sure if it was necessary, just saying it wasn't him defending himself after a coach thinking he did something dirty. With Malone, that could have been the reason. In this case, it wasn't.

Ok, after watching it:

* I wish we could have seen the whole incident, unedited. Instead, this clip only showed the 4-5 seconds of the confrontation. I wanted to see how the entire thing unfolded, even if it involved other players.

But judging from what I saw, I think Malone took more exception than necessary to what was happening.

* This was definitely a memorable game, because of what happened after the confrontation. I'll bet had I seen this game, I would refer to it in game threads, every now and then, when a confrontation happened.

* I wish there were some clips of Malone defending Kenyon Martin. Two of the most physical players in the league, I wanted to see how that would go.

One reason why I liked the Gordan Hayward clip against the Lakers (his 27 points against the Lakers a few years ago), is because not only did it show every Gordan scoring play, including FREE THROWS, but it also showed him defending Bryant. Sure, they only showed clips in which he got a steal on Bryant, but at least that's something. Maybe they could have made the clip even more perfect if they showed plays in which Gordan's help or on-the-ball defense helped directly or indirectly force the Lakers into a missed shot. But overall, it was a fairly thorough clip, and again, I liked that they showed him at the foul line. To me, free throws are part of the game, and I want to get into the moment even more by watching the player make or miss free throws. I wish this Malone clip had FTs and more defensive sequences too.


For completeness sake, which is what I desire, here are all the FT attempts, after the incident:

0:22.2 47-40 K. Malone misses free throw 1 of 2
0:22.2 47-40 Offensive rebound by Team
0:22.2 47-41 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 2 of 2


5:56.0 55-55 +2 K. Malone makes 2-pt shot from 3 ft (assist by Q. Lewis)
5:56.0 55-55 Shooting foul by T. MacCulloch
5:56.0 55-56 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 1 of 1


4:46.0 55-60 +2 K. Malone makes 2-pt shot at rim (assist by J. Stockton)
4:46.0 55-60 Shooting foul by T. MacCulloch
4:46.0 55-60 Utah full timeout
4:46.0 L. Harris enters the game for K. Kittles 55-60
4:46.0 55-61 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 1 of 1


11:17.0 Turnover by A. Williams (lost ball; steal by K. Malone) 66-65
11:14.0 66-65 Shooting foul by A. Williams
11:14.0 66-66 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 1 of 2
11:14.0 66-67 +1 K. Malone makes free throw 2 of 2



Oh, and I see the Nets won the game in overtime.


So Malone went 5/6 from the foul line after the incident.


* There weren't any Malone shovel passes to Stockton. I like Malone bounce passes to Stockton. I kept waiting for one to be shown. I got a little excited at the 5:00 mark when it looked like he'd have an assist, to Stockton, but Malone was used only to reposition the screen, and the ball came back to him.

If I was making my personal highlights clip, with all of my favorite plays, regardless of whether they were from the same game, I'd include more of the last two bullet points. This game could have been perfect if it had sequences with more of these, haha.

 

[MHSL82]

Sad day for Nuraman, but I could see him accepting it or even agreeing with it: Jason Kidd of New York Knicks retiring after 19 NBA seasons

Kidd's defense stopped being good in New Jersey. I don't know what day that was.

Stockton was still a good defender on his last day.

With your thoughts on Hornacek and your admiration of Kidd, I was wondering, what would you think if this happened? Jason Kidd pursuing Brooklyn Nets' head coaching job

 

[MHSL82]

Oh, if anyone not familiar with my references: I am not making my opinion based upon how Duncan looks or insinuating that that is the reason for his praise. My comments stem from a long thread I had earlier with Nuraman on how Duncan does help the Spurs a lot, but even when he doesn't produce numbers, people fill in the gaps to make him seem like he's the reason for everything. 20 and 11 does not beat 25 and 10. But apparently it does to many. That 20 and 11 will go down the next few years. So will his blocks and defense.

If Duncan plays the next 281 games the same way he's played the last 281 games (four seasons - hasn't played a full 82), he will then average 19.4 points and 10.9 rebounds in 1461 games. Malone averaged 25 points and 10.1 rebounds in 1476 games - one season in which he was the third scorer due to Shaq and Kobe. 51.6% to 50.7% shooting, Malone advantage.

His blocks? Well, that's a center thing, not a power forward thing. I won't argue his greatness center-wise. If people just called him a center, I would have no qualms over anything. But if you are claimed to be used as a PF and produce less, then I will say you are not as great. Duncan's has had more help. Put Malone on those teams and I think he'd have a few rings, even without Stockton.

All my opinion of course.

 

[MHSL82]

If Prokhorov hires Kidd, that's a - for me. Prokhorov sucks.

Well, then, Prokhorov sucks. Jason Kidd hired as new coach of Brooklyn Nets

I want Kidd to do well, as a coach, because I didn't want him getting closer to that assist leader number. He would never pass it, but every 1,000 he passes, the less the assist plateau that Stockton has looks. That's one reason why I was bugged that Mark Jackson passed 10,000.

But I also don't like Moron Williams, I mean Deron, so 41-41 is the hope? No, I don't think he's a moron, just his name sounded a bit like that when I first typed his name.

 

[nuraman00]

When a team wins the conference finals, or NBA Finals, sometimes there's a special all-time great, that presents the conference finals trophy or NBA Finals trophy to the winning team.

For example, Alonzo Mourning (Heat) and George "Iceman" Gervin (Spurs) did it for this year's Finalists during the conference finals.

Sometimes it can just be a network studio host, such as Stuart Scott (ESPN) or Ernie Johnson (TNT).

When the Jazz win the conference finals, who will be the special trophy presenter?

Who would you like to see do it?

I think Dantley and Malone are the most obvious picks. If Hornacek isn't working for another team, I could see it being him too. Stockton doesn't seem to like this sort of attention-getting moment, so I think he is less likely.

Sloan is another good pick. Actually, I think Sloan is the leading candidate now.

Sometimes it can be someone outside the organization that presents it (such as Bill Russell), but I think there's too much history with the Jazz for someone not tied to the Jazz to do it.

I don't think it will be Maravich, since he was more associated with the New Orleans Jazz.

 

[MHSL82]

When a team wins the conference finals, or NBA Finals, sometimes there's a special all-time great, that presents the conference finals trophy or NBA Finals trophy to the winning team.

For example, Alonzo Mourning (Heat) and George "Iceman" Gervin (Spurs) did it for this year's Finalists during the conference finals.

Sometimes it can just be a network studio host, such as Stuart Scott (ESPN) or Ernie Johnson (TNT).

When the Jazz win the conference finals, who will be the special trophy presenter?

Who would you like to see do it?

I think Dantley and Malone are the most obvious picks. If Hornacek isn't working for another team, I could see it being him too. Stockton doesn't seem to like this sort of attention-getting moment, so I think he is less likely.

Sloan is another good pick. Actually, I think Sloan is the leading candidate now.

Sometimes it can be someone outside the organization that presents it (such as Bill Russell), but I think there's too much history with the Jazz for someone not tied to the Jazz to do it.

I don't think it will be Maravich, since he was more associated with the New Orleans Jazz.

I'd hope it wouldn't be Maravich. He died during a pickup game decades ago. But robots like you don't see the distinction or significance of dead/alive, so I don't blame you. I'd imagine, but don't know because I am not a robot or computer like you, that it would take some time to get used to humans and fully assimilate. These must-be-breathing, heart-must-be-beating traditions are low on the priorities of customs one such as yourself would learn. I know because I read this in a book. (I actually did have a neurological class called, "Brains, Minds, and Machines" but it was light on the machines part and brains/minds are basically the same if not the same thing and the professor said the mind was a machine; he must have been talking about you.)

 

[JazzMatt13]

Sup bros.

I am glad Kidd retired, if he spent 2-3 more good years in NBA he could have got pretty close to Stockton's records. Actually I am pointing out, Jason Kidd is only guy who could ever beat those records, and now it is official, Stockton's records will never be beaten, Kidd will always be #2 in Total Assists and Steals by a large margin! Nash is still going but, he needs 5,500 assists, which ain't happening.

 

[MHSL82]

Sup bros.

I am glad Kidd retired, if he spent 2-3 more good years in NBA he could have got pretty close to Stockton's records. Actually I am pointing out, Jason Kidd is only guy who could ever beat those records, and now it is official, Stockton's records will never be beaten, Kidd will always be #2 in Total Assists and Steals by a large margin! Nash is still going but, he needs 5,500 assists, which ain't happening.

Welcome aboard! Feel free to introduce yourself on the ESPN/CBS Members: Welcome Aboard! thread.

I am big on assists for PGs but even bigger on Stockton keeping his records. Since he didn't win a championship, that's the one thing he has to be given at least part of his due.

Incidentally, Stockton is writing an autobiography to be released on October 28th. He says that despite the fact that the two Finals appearances were a highlight of his career, he didn't have much to say about it because he lost. Also, he talked about the decision to retire and that was it was based upon teammates disagreement. They felt Stockon and Malone were getting special treatment. It was a worry that he had never worried about before. The level of aches and pains were new, too. He said the way that he responded to those challenges, showed that it was the time to go.

 

[MHSL82]

Matt, what kind of timeline do you put on us winning the trades overall? Next year with good draft use? Two years, when all the young guys have been given major minutes? What do you think of Corbin as coach? Would you rather have Hornacek? (Out of those two. Nuraman would say, "neither" despite him knowing full well that that wasn't an option.) I don't have much confidence in Corbin, but he has one and a half year's experience and Hornacek is a newbie with little assistant coaching.

What are your thoughts on Malone and Sloan? I think I know a bit from your first post on Stockton.

 

[nuraman00]

 

[nuraman00]

I don't have much confidence in Corbin

Can you explain further why? I want to learn more about your thoughts, this is a message board.

 

[MHSL82]

Can you explain further? Why? I want to learn more about your thoughts, this is a message board.

Fixed.

 

[MHSL82]

Can you explain further why? I want to learn more about your thoughts, this is a message board.

Just a feeling. He doesn't seem to have it, to me. He doesn't seem to be the genius who can draw up a play when it's needed (though he probably knows the playbook very well), instill confidence in his players before a winning shot opportunity, outsmart the other coach in gameplanning, and his name, the way he ties his shoes, eats his fries, man. Just kidding. I have to say he's much better than I would be and I can't say he's the worst coach, either.

Yes, I know, coaches don't draw up (good) plays at timeouts per se. I just don't see him as being all that good.