Rangers at (Price-less) Rays

[Windingmywatch]

That WS wasn't all on Lowe.

Since the box score shows him as the losing pitcher of the 2011 WS Game 6 it doesn't matter how many other guys screwed up ahead of him ... Long Ball got the loss.

The thing is ... whenever Lowe goes in to pitch in extra innings ... it has to be on the back of his mind.

Speaking of match ups ... why was Perez in the bullpen warming up? Who was he going to face? Carlos Pena? If Carlos Pena is batting ... you already lost the game. He should have been pitching to Zobrist to turn him around. Zobrist slash line is about the same LH or RH ... but had 12HR LH versus 3HR RH ... plus was hitless up to that point.

Then you have Lowe come in ... gets Upton down 0-2 and loses him ... then 2-0 to Zobrist. Zobrist knew what he was going to get on the next pitch before Soto flashed the sign.

The problem is ... Lowe will go another 4 or 5 nights before he gets to pitch again so it will be on his mind all the time. Bad when you have more trust in Scheppers than you do Lowe.

Lowe is an FA in 2013 ... what are the chances TEX resigns him? They will pay Feldman $9.2mil before resigning Lowe.

 

[WilltheThrill]

The argument in favor of Ron Washington is always one of two things: a) the players love him, and b) back to back WS appearances and 1st in the AL this year.

I can't decide which one is more ridiculous and lacking of any real baseball knowledge.

To defense letter a I could easily bring up the fact that just about anyone could be well-liked by players. You or I could take over tomorrow and be a laid-back, rah-rah, "I believe in my guys" manager. Would that make us really popular with our players? Of course. Would it make us great managers? No.

To defense letter b I could easily say that given the right amount of talent, anyone... and I do mean anyone... could be a "winning manager". Put together a squad of the greatest players to ever play each position and a 4 year-old girl could manage them to the World Series. Elite talent wins games by itself. Those who have never played the game at any kind of real level don't understand that Ron Washington frequently puts his team in situations where the odds are stacked against them. More often than not their crazy talent defies the odds and they win. But sometimes they can't overcome his gaffes. And these gaffes aren't nitpicking armchair QB kind of criticisms that fans love to dish out. These are BASIC mistakes he makes which go against even the most rudimentary of baseball philosophies that kids learn in little league. So people who played the game year-round for almost 20 years spot them very easily.

Every single educated baseball person I know... from college players to diehard season ticket holders to one person actually high up in the organization all hold the same opinion of Wash- great rah-rah inspire the guys pedal to the metal kind of guy, but dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to being truly baseball smart and a shrewd tactician.

Listen to the guy talk. He struggles to complete simple sentences in English. He risked throwing his career away by doing cocaine. Do any of you honestly think he is a smart man?

I'm not advocating his firing here. It is what it is. He has his good points and bad points. The Rangers are winning and the players like him, so no need to rock the boat. But you are seriously delusional or just don't know much about baseball if you honestly believe another manager couldn't do better with the talent they have.

Romeo is spot-on, Wash got badly out-managed in both previous World Series. It might not have mattered against SF, but it sure did against STL.

Esteban German, a lifetime Mendoza line hitter who hadn't even swung a bat since July, pinch hitting in a crucial late-inning World Series game. Not a person alive can defend that rationally. No one. And those are the kinds of moves which make people question Wash's ability. Nice guy? Probably so. Improved since he started? Sure. Good in some aspects of managing? Yeah, credit where credit is due. Smart manager? No.

 

[WilltheThrill]

On a positive note, at least the Rays winning keeps the Angels that much further out of the playoffs. I want no part of Trout and Pujols come playoff time. Their bullpen is a joke and their starting rotation is incredibly talented but just as inconsistent. But they can score 10 runs a game as easy as tying their shoelaces.

Plus, seriously, who wants to see CJ Wilson, Mike Scoscia, Mike Trout, Torii Hunter, Jered Weaver, and Arte Moreno have any kind of success at all?

 

[romeo212000]

The argument in favor of Ron Washington is always one of two things: a) the players love him, and b) back to back WS appearances and 1st in the AL this year.

I can't decide which one is more ridiculous and lacking of any real baseball knowledge.

To defense letter a I could easily bring up the fact that just about anyone could be well-liked by players. You or I could take over tomorrow and be a laid-back, rah-rah, "I believe in my guys" manager. Would that make us really popular with our players? Of course. Would it make us great managers? No.

To defense letter b I could easily say that given the right amount of talent, anyone... and I do mean anyone... could be a "winning manager". Put together a squad of the greatest players to ever play each position and a 4 year-old girl could manage them to the World Series. Elite talent wins games by itself. Those who have never played the game at any kind of real level don't understand that Ron Washington frequently puts his team in situations where the odds are stacked against them. More often than not their crazy talent defies the odds and they win. But sometimes they can't overcome his gaffes. And these gaffes aren't nitpicking armchair QB kind of criticisms that fans love to dish out. These are BASIC mistakes he makes which go against even the most rudimentary of baseball philosophies that kids learn in little league. So people who played the game year-round for almost 20 years spot them very easily.

Every single educated baseball person I know... from college players to diehard season ticket holders to one person actually high up in the organization all hold the same opinion of Wash- great rah-rah inspire the guys pedal to the metal kind of guy, but dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to being truly baseball smart and a shrewd tactician.

Listen to the guy talk. He struggles to complete simple sentences in English. He risked throwing his career away by doing cocaine. Do any of you honestly think he is a smart man?

I'm not advocating his firing here. It is what it is. He has his good points and bad points. The Rangers are winning and the players like him, so no need to rock the boat. But you are seriously delusional or just don't know much about baseball if you honestly believe another manager couldn't do better with the talent they have.

Romeo is spot-on, Wash got badly out-managed in both previous World Series. It might not have mattered against SF, but it sure did against STL.

Esteban German, a lifetime Mendoza line hitter who hadn't even swung a bat since July, pinch hitting in a crucial late-inning World Series game. Not a person alive can defend that rationally. No one. And those are the kinds of moves which make people question Wash's ability. Nice guy? Probably so. Improved since he started? Sure. Good in some aspects of managing? Yeah, credit where credit is due. Smart manager? No.

Which is why I don't think Texas will win a WS with wash pulling the strings. He pushes the wrong buttons too often when it's critical. Last night was a perfect example. Murphy gets on base with no outs. Instead of swapping him for Gentry (the undoubted fastest runner on the team) and letting him swipe a bag he leaves Murphy in there. Why? Someone please explain that logic to me. Then, he gives Murphy the green light to go who really isn't a very good base stealer. So we could've easily had Gentry standing on second with no outs and three chances to bring him home. Instead he left Murphy on base, gave him the green light instead where he was badly thrown out as we all expected.

Someone please defend this. This crap right here is why wash will not lead this team to a WS. He doesn't know how to push the right buttons.

 

[Windingmywatch]

Which is why I don't think Texas will win a WS with wash pulling the strings. He pushes the wrong buttons too often when it's critical. Last night was a perfect example. Murphy gets on base with no outs. Instead of swapping him for Gentry (the undoubted fastest runner on the team) and letting him swipe a bag he leaves Murphy in there. Why? Someone please explain that logic to me. Then, he gives Murphy the green light to go who really isn't a very good base stealer. So we could've easily had Gentry standing on second with no outs and three chances to bring him home. Instead he left Murphy on base, gave him the green light instead where he was badly thrown out as we all expected.

Someone please defend this. This crap right here is why wash will not lead this team to a WS. He doesn't know how to push the right buttons.

Don't think anyone can defense the decision for not having Gentry running there. If you think he's roasted for that non-move here ... BBTIA ire this morning is split between not having Gentry running for Murphy and decision to use Lowe in a self-created high leverage situation.

 

[Al Falfa]

The argument in favor of Ron Washington is always one of two things: a) the players love him, and b) back to back WS appearances and 1st in the AL this year.

I can't decide which one is more ridiculous and lacking of any real baseball knowledge.

To defense letter a I could easily bring up the fact that just about anyone could be well-liked by players. You or I could take over tomorrow and be a laid-back, rah-rah, "I believe in my guys" manager. Would that make us really popular with our players? Of course. Would it make us great managers? No.

To defense letter b I could easily say that given the right amount of talent, anyone... and I do mean anyone... could be a "winning manager". Put together a squad of the greatest players to ever play each position and a 4 year-old girl could manage them to the World Series. Elite talent wins games by itself. Those who have never played the game at any kind of real level don't understand that Ron Washington frequently puts his team in situations where the odds are stacked against them. More often than not their crazy talent defies the odds and they win. But sometimes they can't overcome his gaffes. And these gaffes aren't nitpicking armchair QB kind of criticisms that fans love to dish out. These are BASIC mistakes he makes which go against even the most rudimentary of baseball philosophies that kids learn in little league. So people who played the game year-round for almost 20 years spot them very easily.

Every single educated baseball person I know... from college players to diehard season ticket holders to one person actually high up in the organization all hold the same opinion of Wash- great rah-rah inspire the guys pedal to the metal kind of guy, but dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to being truly baseball smart and a shrewd tactician.

Listen to the guy talk. He struggles to complete simple sentences in English. He risked throwing his career away by doing cocaine. Do any of you honestly think he is a smart man?

I'm not advocating his firing here. It is what it is. He has his good points and bad points. The Rangers are winning and the players like him, so no need to rock the boat. But you are seriously delusional or just don't know much about baseball if you honestly believe another manager couldn't do better with the talent they have.

Romeo is spot-on, Wash got badly out-managed in both previous World Series. It might not have mattered against SF, but it sure did against STL.

Esteban German, a lifetime Mendoza line hitter who hadn't even swung a bat since July, pinch hitting in a crucial late-inning World Series game. Not a person alive can defend that rationally. No one. And those are the kinds of moves which make people question Wash's ability. Nice guy? Probably so. Improved since he started? Sure. Good in some aspects of managing? Yeah, credit where credit is due. Smart manager? No.

Pick the most brilliant manager you can think of and put him in Washington's position for game 6 and Feliz still throws an 0-2 fastball in the heart of the plate. On top of that MY flubbed a couple of ground balls at first base and Nelson Cruz misplayed a ball in RF. Is Wash a Rhoads scholar? Nope, not even close, but he put the players that JD gave him in a position to succeed and they didn't. Considering that the overall baseball IQ on the Rangers roster is pretty dim it would be a credit to any manager who has shown the year over year improvement that Wash has guided the team to.

 

[guitarmy21b]

Pick the most brilliant manager you can think of and put him in Washington's position for game 6 and Feliz still throws an 0-2 fastball in the heart of the plate. On top of that MY flubbed a couple of ground balls at first base and Nelson Cruz misplayed a ball in RF. Is Wash a Rhoads scholar? Nope, not even close, but he put the players that JD gave him in a position to succeed and they didn't. Considering that the overall baseball IQ on the Rangers roster is pretty dim it would be a credit to any manager who has shown the year over year improvement that Wash has guided the team to.

Exactly. And for the talk of him being out-classed last year, people seem to forget TLR's famous bullpen phone not working and a lot of other shit people were criticizing him for. Wash put the team in a position to win in 6 games despite not having HFA, a rain delay, bad officiating, and the team didn't follow through. To put the blame on him is horseshit.

 

[romeo212000]

Pick the most brilliant manager you can think of and put him in Washington's position for game 6 and Feliz still throws an 0-2 fastball in the heart of the plate. On top of that MY flubbed a couple of ground balls at first base and Nelson Cruz misplayed a ball in RF. Is Wash a Rhoads scholar? Nope, not even close, but he put the players that JD gave him in a position to succeed and they didn't. Considering that the overall baseball IQ on the Rangers roster is pretty dim it would be a credit to any manager who has shown the year over year improvement that Wash has guided the team to.

Position to succeed? First of all they had one more chance than Feliz's 0-2 fastball. Wash did not have them playing at no doubles depth the first time, which he should've. Second, wash made the decision to go with a soft tossing lefty who always lets the first runner on to face the 7-8 hitters and their best hitting pitcher after Josh gave them a shot at redemption and thoroughly let him piss away a 2 run lead. That's actually not true. After letting Oliver put them in a shitstorm he brought Feldman in an almost impossible situation to face the top of the order.

This is the same manager who started Torrealba in game 3 "because he's part of this team too", had colby go ahead and bunt with Freese playing about 10 from tge plate instead of calling for a slash swing, and started Vlad in RF in game 1 in SF. Puts his players in a position to succeed? I think not. More like the players succeed in spite of the positions he puts them in.

 

[romeo212000]

Exactly. And for the talk of him being out-classed last year, people seem to forget TLR's famous bullpen phone not working and a lot of other shit people were criticizing him for. Wash put the team in a position to win in 6 games despite not having HFA, a rain delay, bad officiating, and the team didn't follow through. To put the blame on him is horseshit.

That's bullshit. Even if it was a fuck up on tlr's part he pushed many more right buttons than wrong ones. Wash did not put his team in position to win the WS in game 6. In fact he did the exact opposite.

 

[guitarmy21b]

That's bullshit. Even if it was a fuck up on tlr's part he pushed many more right buttons than wrong ones. Wash did not put his team in position to win the WS in game 6. In fact he did the exact opposite.

Romeo logic: Decision he doesn't agree with = bad decision, period.

Take for example, starting Torrealba in game 3. Bad decision according to you, yet we still should have won game 6 until our players lost it. Instead of blaming them, you're blaming Wash for game 3 decisions and such. The problem with your logic is when we win after one of Wash's "bad decisions", instead of that turning into a "good decision" it turns into "we won in spite of his bad decision". This is where you fail.

Let go of the hate, buddy. This is a happy place.

 

[Al Falfa]

Position to succeed? First of all they had one more chance than Feliz's 0-2 fastball. Wash did not have them playing at no doubles depth the first time, which he should've. Second, wash made the decision to go with a soft tossing lefty who always lets the first runner on to face the 7-8 hitters and their best hitting pitcher after Josh gave them a shot at redemption and thoroughly let him piss away a 2 run lead. That's actually not true. After letting Oliver put them in a shitstorm he brought Feldman in an almost impossible situation to face the top of the order.

This is the same manager who started Torrealba in game 3 "because he's part of this team too", had colby go ahead and bunt with Freese playing about 10 from tge plate instead of calling for a slash swing, and started Vlad in RF in game 1 in SF. Puts his players in a position to succeed? I think not. More like the players succeed in spite of the positions he puts them in.

I'm sure that putting Vlad in RF cost the Rangers the WS. Not really. It may not have been a great move in retrospect, but as long as we are looking backwards it seemed to be the best move considering how poorly the Rangers hit. They needed the bat.
Slash swing? That's pretty funny,Romeo. I'm sure they work on that little gem on a regular basis.
Blaming Torrealaba for a game three blow out is beyond lame, but what's new? Just more season long second guessing.

 

[romeo212000]

I'm sure that putting Vlad in RF cost the Rangers the WS. Not really. It may not have been a great move in retrospect, but as long as we are looking backwards it seemed to be the best move considering how poorly the Rangers hit. They needed the bat.
Slash swing? That's pretty funny,Romeo. I'm sure they work on that little gem on a regular basis.
Blaming Torrealaba for a game three blow out is beyond lame, but what's new? Just more season long second guessing.

I didn't blame him for the blowout in its entirety. I'm pointing out that wash does not in fact put his players in a position to win as you and guitarmy seem to think.

And you didn't refute the most obvious atrocities of not playing his OF at no doubles depth and his dumb pitching choices. Go ahead and keep trying to cherry pick whatever you think you can defend while ignoring the indefensible though.

 

[romeo212000]

Romeo logic: Decision he doesn't agree with = bad decision, period.

Take for example, starting Torrealba in game 3. Bad decision according to you, yet we still should have won game 6 until our players lost it. Instead of blaming them, you're blaming Wash for game 3 decisions and such. The problem with your logic is when we win after one of Wash's "bad decisions", instead of that turning into a "good decision" it turns into "we won in spite of his bad decision". This is where you fail.

Let go of the hate, buddy. This is a happy place.

A bad decision is a bad decision even if the results turn put favorably in spite of the bad decision. I have yet to see anyone argue in opposition to me that any of the examples I gave were in fact good decisions, and actually put the team in a favorable position. All you guys can basically say is hindsight is 20/20. Of course I was commenting on Wash's stupid decision to not pinch run gentry for Murphy before that inning went all to shit. I can't see into the future. I just recognized more piss poor management from an inept manager.

 

[WilltheThrill]

Al Falfa- you are right in that the World Series losses were not all Ron's fault. Yes, Feliz did groove the fastball. Yes, Cruz misplayed the liner. I never meant to imply that it was Wash and Wash alone who cost them that Series. The players do share the blame. And yes, even the best of managers do make mistakes. Nobody's perfect. Wash has just made more than his share and continues to do so.

As Romeo pointed out- not having the OF at no doubles depth and bringing in Darren Oliver to try to close out a World Series are two moves which cost the Rangers. Those are just two examples right there alone from Game 6. Using Esteban German as a pinch hitter was another. They add up, and after a while the team is playing with a handicap. Sure they might still win. And yes, sometimes Wash does pull the right strings. But it's just the overwhelming amount of really basic stuff he fails at that makes so many question his ability as an in-game manager.

There is no way to quantify the wins he does add by being a player's manager (for the most part) and getting the most out of his guys. I'm sure that does count for something. It's just so frustrating to see such a talented bunch of players have to overcome very basic mistakes by their manager when almost all of the fans, the tv announcers who both played the game, the sportswriters, and the other team all know are mistakes before ans as they're happening.

 

[WilltheThrill]

Anyway, let's keep the focus on today's game. The past is the past and there is nothing the Wash haters and lovers can do about it. It is what it is. I just want to see some more offense today and a return to the win column.

 

[Al Falfa]

I didn't blame him for the blowout in its entirety. I'm pointing out that wash does not in fact put his players in a position to win as you and guitarmy seem to think.

And you didn't refute the most obvious atrocities of not playing his OF at no doubles depth and his dumb pitching choices. Go ahead and keep trying to cherry pick whatever you think you can defend while ignoring the indefensible though.[/

Cherry picking? That's pretty funny coming from a guy who ignores the most obvious yardstick a manager is measured by...wins.

 

[romeo212000]

I didn't blame him for the blowout in its entirety. I'm pointing out that wash does not in fact put his players in a position to win as you and guitarmy seem to think.

And you didn't refute the most obvious atrocities of not playing his OF at no doubles depth and his dumb pitching choices. Go ahead and keep trying to cherry pick whatever you think you can defend while ignoring the indefensible though.[/

Cherry picking? That's pretty funny coming from a guy who ignores the most obvious yardstick a manager is measured by...wins.

Wins in spite of their manager's inept management.

 

[guitarmy21b]

well this is going absolutely nowhere...

 

[Xx srs bsns xX]

well this is going absolutely nowhere...

Pretty much. Both sides are set with their "opinions". So its pointless to bring it up time and time again....

...yet almost every. single. thread. is filled with it.

Jesus.

 

[Xx srs bsns xX]

It might be different if either side brought something new to the argument....but that isn't the case.

Same crap.

Over.

And over.

And over.

And over.

And over.