How many Finals MVPs for Bill Russell if the Award was around at the time?

[MAGA2024]

The turnovers? Are more a testament to how long he has played....it's called longevity.

Ah, so I see...

So we make excuses for LeBron's "longevity" when it comes to him being the all-time leader in Turnovers "and" Missed Shots; however we praise him as the GOAT when it comes to "longevity" being the reason why he's the all-time Points Scored leader.

Gotcha!

LOL

SMH

 

[MAGA2024]

Ah so you pick and choose which facts support your opinion.

LeBron having the 3rd best PER in history kind of fucks up your little rant.

Pick and choose??

???

I use/d dozens of stats when comparing players, not just 1... some, obviously, are a lot more credible than others; however if the majority show one (1) player with clear "overall" superiority it ends up being just one more piece of criteria to use in a GOAT debate.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Ah, so I see...

So we make excuses for LeBron's "longevity" when it comes to him being the all-time leader in Turnovers "and" Missed Shots; however we praise him as the GOAT when it comes to "longevity" being the reason why he's the all-time Points Scored leader.

Gotcha!

LOL

SMH

You're a weird and odd little man.

 

[MAGA2024]

You're a weird and odd little man.

lol... you don't know me from a hole in the ground fool; all you know is I just took you to school.

Tap out, son.

 

[DJ Fieri]

lol... you don't know me from a hole in the ground fool; all you know is I just took you to school.

Tap out, son.

You haven't taken "anybody to school."

 

[tlance]

Lots of players more skilled in one or two facets, sure... Bird was a better shooter and passer, Magic a better passer, Steph a better shoter with better handles, etc... but a better skill-level overall? No... not even close to "lots" of players.

We can go round-round about his Passing... I could show you clip after clip of Jordan's absolutely "elite" Passing skills, but you can do that too, and remind yourself of his greatness in that facet of his game.

Also... a great/elite "Passer" doesn't only mean a guy who racks up a ton of Assists. as I'm sure you know... so what measurement are you using to say he wasn't great?

Yes.

Lots.

As for the passer thing?

What measure you using to say that he was?

You made the claim. That is a high bar for most of us. I watched him play.

He made some great passes at times. But he is not on the level of a good point guard who makes great passes every game.

Just go down the list of point guards in today’s NBA:

All of these guys I would say DEFINITELY more skilled than MJ:

Curry
Brunson
Lillard
Haliburton
Harden
Garland
Chris Paul
Kyrie
SGA

And you could make a case for others too like Trae Young, Jamal Murray etc.

And that is before we even get to role player type guys who are in the league because of their skills only.

Were these guys on his level as a player?

Not even close.

But in terms of skills?

Jordan isn’t on their level.

 

[trojanfan12]

The turnovers? Are more a testament to how long he has played....it's called longevity.

Additionally, Lebron has been the de-facto point guard on virtually every team he's been on. The more a player has the ball and runs the offense, the more turnovers he's going to have.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Pick and choose??

???

I use/d dozens of stats when comparing players, not just 1... some, obviously, are a lot more credible than others; however if the majority show one (1) player with clear "overall" superiority it ends up being just one more piece of criteria to use in a GOAT debate.

There are plenty of stats where LeBron succeeds MJ

You are absolutely picking and choosing. The fact PER is so close only supports what we all by in large are saying....the debate is close.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Additionally, Lebron has been the de-facto point guard on virtually every team he's been on. The more a player has the ball and runs the offense, the more turnovers he's going to have.

That too. Forgot to mention that.

 

[trojanfan12]

There are plenty of stats where LeBron succeeds MJ

You are absolutely picking and choosing. The fact PER is so close only supports what we all by in large are saying....the debate is close.

It's the strangest thing...you can agree with the MJ deep throaters that MJ is the GOAT, but say Lebron has gotten close and they lose their shit like a scorned woman.

 

[DJ Fieri]

It's the strangest thing...you can agree with the MJ deep throaters that MJ is the GOAT, but Lebron has gotten close and they lose their shit like a scorned woman.

It's fucking hilarious.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

It's the strangest thing...you can agree with the MJ deep throaters that MJ is the GOAT, but say Lebron has gotten close and they lose their shit like a scorned woman.

Because the whole debate has taken on a very negative light, it's as if even admitting it is close puts a stain on this bullshit legacy MJ has built. At this point it is bullshit, because it has been a net negative for the league. The NBA was fine thanks to Larry and Magic, MJ took it to certain heights but it was so specific to him, Larry and Magic passed the baton, MJ didn't do that and has gone out of his way to not do it. We are waiting 30 years later for a clean hand off. And weve had a top 5 (at worst) player and scores others who are immensely talented in the meantime.

If MJ never got to a finals I think the NBA would be in a healthier place today.

 

[trojanfan12]

Because the whole debate has taken on a very negative light, it's as if even admitting it is close puts a stain on this bullshit legacy MJ has built. At this point it is bullshit, because it has been a net negative for the league. The NBA was fine thanks to Larry and Magic, MJ took it to certain heights but it was so specific to him, Larry and Magic passed the baton, MJ didn't do that and has gone out of his way to not do it. We are waiting 30 years later for a clean hand off. And weve had a top 5 (at worst) player and scores others who are immensely talented in the meantime.

If MJ never got to a finals I think the NBA would be in a healthier place today.

Yeah, that seems to have a lot to do with it.

Hadn't really considered that MJ never really passed the torch to anyone like Magic and Bird did with him.

The vast majority of those who think Lebron has gotten close, just talk about his accomplishments without trying to tear down MJ. I'm not sure anyone here actually has Lebron as GOAT...most seem to either say it's MJ or they're like me and see it as 3 in the convo, but don't really pick a specific GOAT.

But the MJ folks spend more time trying to tear down Lebron instead of just talking up MJ.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I'll Stop Dancing and lay out my case for Russell as GOAT:
- 5x MVP
- 11 Championships in 13 years
- Won 11 rings going through: Wilt, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Walt Frazier, Wills Reed, Debusschere, Bing, Oscar, Rick Barry, Nate Thurmond.
- Celtics had the best defense in the league in every year he played except one (1968). If DPOY award existed he'd have at least 9-10.
- 10-0 in Game 7's
- .882 winning percentage in his career, top of all time

BILL RUSSELL FINALS GAMES:
- 32-28-4
- 30-40-4
- 30-38-3
- 28-26-5
- 26-29-3
- 26-23-6
- 25-32-1
- 25-29-3
- 24-27-5
etc... the list goes on page after page.. 20+ points, 20+ rebounds

They didn't keep blocks yet. Estimates say he would average around 6 per game, regularly getting over 10.

Monster numbers at the highest level.

I'm not outright declaring Russell IS the GOAT, this is the argument for his candidacy. My personal feeling is that it's impossible to truly define who is the GOAT, and you can only be certain by generation. However, if we're going to dabble, you can't leave Russell off, and Russell comes into play any time an MJ fan rabidly says "6 rings! 6 rings!" when trying to debunk Lebron. If rings mean so much.. well... 11 is a lot more than 6.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Yeah, that seems to have a lot to do with it.

Hadn't really considered that MJ never really passed the torch to anyone like Magic and Bird did with him.

The vast majority of those who think Lebron has gotten close, just talk about his accomplishments without trying to tear down MJ. I'm not sure anyone here actually has Lebron as GOAT...most seem to either say it's MJ or they're like me and see it as 3 in the convo, but don't really pick a specific GOAT.

But the MJ folks spend more time trying to tear down Lebron instead of just talking up MJ.

I honestly hadn't pondered it either until now

People like basketball but many think the NBA isn't compelling or politics or whatever and the person who has benefited most from the league does nothing to really promote it.

A person who watches college and tells me the NBA is trash is just baffling to me, and they almost all have memories of MJ.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I'll Stop Dancing and lay out my case for Russell as GOAT:
- 5x MVP
- 11 Championships in 13 years
- Won 11 rings going through: Wilt, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Walt Frazier, Wills Reed, Debusschere, Bing, Oscar, Rick Barry, Nate Thurmond.
- Celtics had the best defense in the league in every year he played except one (1968). If DPOY award existed he'd have at least 9-10.
- 10-0 in Game 7's
- .882 winning percentage in his career, top of all time

BILL RUSSELL FINALS GAMES:
- 32-28-4
- 30-40-4
- 30-38-3
- 28-26-5
- 26-29-3
- 26-23-6
- 25-32-1
- 25-29-3
- 24-27-5
etc... the list goes on page after page.. 20+ points, 20+ rebounds

They didn't keep blocks yet. Estimates say he would average around 6 per game, regularly getting over 10.

Monster numbers at the highest level.

I'm not outright declaring Russell IS the GOAT, this is the argument for his candidacy. My personal feeling is that it's impossible to truly define who is the GOAT, and you can only be certain by generation. However, if we're going to dabble, you can't leave Russell off, and Russell comes into play any time an MJ fan rabidly says "6 rings! 6 rings!" when trying to debunk Lebron. If rings mean so much.. well... 11 is a lot more than 6.

All I will grant you is if rings is the discussion, then Bill is your guy

 

[Mr. Friscus]

All I will grant you is if rings is the discussion, then Bill is your guy

I think I need you to explain away 5 MVP's and monster numbers in the NBA finals.. routinely.. as well as being considered the best defender in the league for a solid decade (Yes, defense is half of the game)

 

[trojanfan12]

I honestly hadn't pondered it either until now

People like basketball but many think the NBA isn't compelling or politics or whatever and the person who has benefited most from the league does nothing to really promote it.

A person who watches college and tells me the NBA is trash is just baffling to me, and they almost all have memories of MJ.

Yeah, MJ has always promoted himself far more than he promoted the NBA. Didn't he at one point, say they couldn't use his likeness anymore?

Maybe he'll promote it more now that he's going to be an analyst? A lot of his peers, Magic, Larry, Barkley, etc. still do a lot to promote the league, but you're right, MJ really doesn't.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I think I need you to explain away 5 MVP's and monster numbers in the NBA finals.. routinely.. as well as being considered the best defender in the league for a solid decade (Yes, defense is half of the game)

I've spent enough energy on Russell. 44 percent from the field as a 5 is a disqualifier

 

[tlance]

Here are some stats backing up my opinion that MJ is not anywhere close to most skilled player ever:

MJ career stats

3 point %: 32.7
FT%: 83.9
True Shooting: 56.9%
Assist %: 24.9%
AST/TO: 1.92

Curry:

3 point %: 42.3
FT%: 91.1
True Shooting: 62.5%
Assist: 30.8%
AST/TO: 2.05

Haliburton

3 point: 39.2%
FT: 85.5%
TS: 60.6%
Assist: 38.1%
AST/TO: 4.14

Paul

3 Point: 37%
FT: 87.1%
TS: 58.1%
Assist: 44.1
AST/TO: 4.04

Those are just the first 3 I looked up from my list.

MJ doesn’t beat any of those guys in any of the 5 cats.