The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Wamu]

Miller?

Yep, he sure was. He was the one who invented kicking his leg out to draw a foul on a defender. lol

You sure LeBron didn't start kicking his leg out first on shots?

 

[PolarVortex]

"glad to help" <---- You didn't help. What you said isn't correct.

You really need to stop talking because you seemingly know very little to nothing about the NBA.

Bird played 13 seasons. Eight of them were at the small forward spot.

So in other words he played more games at small forward than power forward.

Didn't read

 

[MAGA2024]

They helped him win. Which is what was relevant

If MJ had 1 ring no one would be calling him the GOAT

He won 6 in 8 years after the role changes

You can argue that's coincidence but i ( and many others ) would disagree

So why did the rule-changes only help Jordan win? Why didn'tthey impact other stars of the era? Jordan wasn't the only elite slasher of his era... why didn't the changes help Nique or Drexler, for example, or Pippen (withoit MJ), or Penny, etc. Why just Mike?

Truth is Jordan didn't "need" rule changes to help him win... all he needed was a decent team around him, which he didn't have until the 89/90 seasons.

 

[MAGA2024]

As you have said in other posts…

LeBron takes 35% of his shots at the rim.

So he should get to the line a lot. If anything, even more than he has.

At times it seems like he gets the Shaq treatment from officials where a smaller player hits him and the ref doesn’t call it because he finishes through the contact.

But a foul is a foul. Being strong enough to limit the affect shouldn’t count against a player. It absolutely does for LeBron.

I would argue LeBron has commited more Offensive fouls (on his drives to the basket) than missed/overlooked calls that don't go in his favor... but regalrdless, the assertion here is that Jordan was somehow the one getting more preferrential treatment from the refs, yet when you look at PF called against and FGA/FTA ratio, that doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[MAGA2024]

MJ also benefitted from flopping and whining for fouls and favorable whistles. If you think otherwise, you never saw him play. There is actually video of Magic and Bird (who benefitted from favorable whistles themselves) giving him shit about it by saying "don't get too close to him or it's a foul".

No one has said Lebron's big mouth isn't part of why he gets so much flak. But his big mouth has nothing to do with his on-court accomplishments...yet you MJ deep throaters sure like to pretend it does.

LOL... you claim Jordan flopped YET you're questioning whether I saw him play??

Priceless! Also, LeBron does more crying/whining in 1 game than Jordan would do in an entire season.

The Magic Johnson comment? Funny you bring that up because when they went head-head in the 91 Finals Magic took 41 Free Throws and was whistled for just 10 Personal Fouls.

Jordan? He only took 33 Free Throws (despite taking 55 more shots than Magic) and he was whistled for 18 Fouls (despite playing 18 fewer minutes than Magic).

Sooooo.... who really got all the calls AND who among us never really saw Jordan play?

 

[MAGA2024]

Exactly who has said LeBron > MJ...nobody right?

So why is this thread 25 pages long then?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

What rules did they change to help Jordan dominate because last I checked Jordan was dominating from Day 1.

Not until the Celtics and Lakers got old. Jordan couldn’t break through until then

 

[MAGA2024]

Not until the Celtics and Lakers got old. Jordan couldn’t break through until then

Oh stop...

Jordan only faced the Celtics in his 2nd and 3rd seasons, when Charles Oakley was the second-best player on the Bulls and those Celtics had five (5) HOFERS on the roster. Bostion was kicked off the EC mountain by the Bad Boys in 88, and the following two seasons (89 and 90) no team in the NBA played the 2-time Champion Pistons tougher than Jordan and the Bulls.

The 91 Lakers were old? You sure about that?

Magic: 31
Teagle: 30
Worthy - 29
Scott - 29
Perkins - 29
AC Green - 27
Divac - 22
Campbell - 22

That was LA's top 8 rotation guys in the Finals... and Magic was #2 in MVP voting that year, while Worthy was an All NBA / All Star as well. They were far from old.

"Old" would be the Spurs, who crushed "absolute prime" LeBron and the Heat in 5 games during the 2014 Finals

 

[trojanfan12]

LOL... you claim Jordan flopped YET you're questioning whether I saw him play??

He did flop. And yes, I not only question whether or not you saw him play, I question your knowledge of the game.

Additionally, I said Magic got favorable whistles as well.

How many free throws Magic got in the one finals series between the teams has nothing to do with whether or not MJ flopped.

You have a habit of bringing in shit that has nothing to with the discussion to try to prove a point. Not to mention you thinking your opinions are fact. It's why no one takes anything you say seriously.

 

[MAGA2024]

He did flop. And yes, I not only question whether or not you saw him play, I question your knowledge of the game.

Additionally, I said Magic got favorable whistles as well.
quote.

How many free throws Magic got in the one finals series between the teams has nothing to do with whether or not MJ flopped.

You have a habit of bringing in shit that has nothing to with the discussion to try to prove a point. Not to mention you thinking your opinions are fact. It's why no one takes anything you say seriously.

Jordan flopped.... what, once or twice in his career? Show me ANY shred of evidence (written, visual, whatever) that suggests Jordan was routine flopper like LeBron has been.

I'll wait... and FTR the "discusion" I was having centered on why Jordan fans are so negative toward LeBron. I brought up his constant flopping as just one (1) reason why... and THEN in a separate exchange, I addressed the idea that Jordan was getting all the calls based on the Magic Johnson quote that was brought up.

If you can't follow the flow of discussions that's your problem.

No... Jordan didn't flop and NO, he wasn't whining and crying incessantly to the refs like LeBron does eveeeeeery single game without fail. To claim he was just proves you have no clue.

 

[rmilia1]

So why did the rule-changes only help Jordan win? Why didn'tthey impact other stars of the era? Jordan wasn't the only elite slasher of his era... why didn't the changes help Nique or Drexler, for example, or Pippen (withoit MJ), or Penny, etc. Why just Mike?

Truth is Jordan didn't "need" rule changes to help him win... all he needed was a decent team around him, which he didn't have until the 89/90 seasons.

They did vendor Drexler. He made 2 Finals and won 1 after the changes and had never even made a WCF before. Pennys career didn't start til after the role changes. Tough to say what would've happened with Nique. He only really had one semi healthy year after the changes

Ultimately the role changes eye meant to be punitive to the teams who played physically ( like Detrout/Boston/ Philly in the East )

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Oh stop...

Jordan only faced the Celtics in his 2nd and 3rd seasons, when Charles Oakley was the second-best player on the Bulls and those Celtics had five (5) HOFERS on the roster. Bostion was kicked off the EC mountain by the Bad Boys in 88, and the following two seasons (89 and 90) no team in the NBA played the 2-time Champion Pistons tougher than Jordan and the Bulls.

The 91 Lakers were old? You sure about that?

Magic: 31
Teagle: 30
Worthy - 29
Scott - 29
Perkins - 29
AC Green - 27
Divac - 22
Campbell - 22

That was LA's top 8 rotation guys in the Finals... and Magic was #2 in MVP voting that year, while Worthy was an All NBA / All Star as well. They were far from old.

"Old" would be the Spurs, who crushed "absolute prime" LeBron and the Heat in 5 games during the 2014 Finals

I can tell you're young. Back in the 70's-80's and into the 90's, 30 was old. Bird was done by 30-31, Magic was starting to decline. Players today have the modern mindset, fitness, supplements, and nutrition to extend their careers. Magic, Worthy, Scott and Perkins were all on the decline. People who watched back then saw how aged the Lakers looked compared to the Bulls.

 

[trojanfan12]

Jordan flopped...

Glad you agree.

and FTR the "discusion" I was having centered on why Jordan fans are so negative toward LeBron. I brought up his constant flopping as just one (1) reason why... and THEN in a separate exchange, I addressed the idea that Jordan was getting all the calls based on the Magic Johnson quote that was brought up.

And none of those are anything that takes anything away from what he has accomplished on the court. That is yet another reason why no one here takes you seriously.

 

[DJ Fieri]

He did flop. And yes, I not only question whether or not you saw him play, I question your knowledge of the game.

Additionally, I said Magic got favorable whistles as well.

How many free throws Magic got in the one finals series between the teams has nothing to do with whether or not MJ flopped.

You have a habit of bringing in shit that has nothing to with the discussion to try to prove a point. Not to mention you thinking your opinions are fact. It's why no one takes anything you say seriously.

This.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Let's look at Jordan's NBA Finals vs. the Sonics in 1996:

Game 1: Bulls 107 Sonics 90
- Mike: 9/18 50% 28-7-2 (9-10 FT).
- Mike had the 3rd highest Game Score (21.2) behind Pippen (22.2) and Kemp 24.2). Bulls also had high game scores from Harper (18.1) and Kukoc (17.0) giving them 4 of the top 5 gamescores.
ANALYSIS: For Mike? Nothing special

Game 2: Bulls 92 Sonics 88
- Mike 9/22 (40%) 29-6-8 (10-16 FT)
- Mike (21.8) second in game score to Kemp (26.5, had 29-13-2)
- Rodman had 10 points and 20 boards, Pippen 21-7-2
ANALYSIS: Below average performance for MJ, 40% shooting, living at the FT line at this time in his career, would get James Harden treatment.

Game 3: Bulls 108 Sonics 86
- Mike 11/23 (47%) 36-3-5 (11-11 FT)
- Mike had highest game score 28.1
ANALYSIS: Great performance by Mike here, the next highest game score was 18.3 by Gary Payton (18.3 with 19-7-9), then the next 3 highest game scores were Pippen, Kukoc, and Longley.

Game 4: Sonics 107 Bulls 86
- Mike 6/19 (31%) 23-3-2 (11-13 FT).
- Mikes game score 9.8, 6th best in the game (Kemp 24.6 with 25-11-3)
ANALYSIS: Horrible game by Mike, literally being kept alive by the FT line.

Game 5: Sonics 89 Bulls 78
- Mike 11/22 (50%) 26-4-1 (4-5 FT)
- Mike had 15.1 game score, tops on his team, below Gary Peyton and Hersey hawkins on Seattle. (GP 19.3 with 23-9-6)
ANALYSIS: Another non-elite game from MJ

Game 6: Bulls 87 Sonics 75
- Mike 5/19 (26%) 22-9-7 (11-12 FT).
- Mike was 2nd in gamescore for his team with 14.9 (Rodman had 19.2 with 9-19-5). In the overall game Mike was 4th (GP 16.7, Kemp 16.0)
ANALYSIS: Horrible Game by MJ, again only relevant because at this time you couldn't breathe on the guy.

MJ was given the MVP this series. But you could say that:
- He was clearly the best player on the court once in the 6 games.
- He was the best player on his team via gamescore 3x.
- This was a very underwhelming performance by Mike. It's entirely debatable if he deserved it.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Jordan flopped.... what, once or twice in his career?

Tell me you're believing the mythological caricature of MJ without saying it.

MJ was propped up by the biggest machine in sports history: The NBA, Nike, and ESPN all centered all of their programming around one guy. It created a near religious demigod figure.. that's why MJ fans are so angry when lebron is brought up. Lebron is a threat to their "god".

 

[dtgold88]

Another dumb comment "or"a VERY bad troll attempt.

Run along already...

I mean, I can get behind not being very brought of you to make my point for me...that what you meant?

 

[dtgold88]

@tlance @dtgold88 … I think we gotta just let @MAGA2024 go.. he’s unable to make an argument and continuing with them is pointless

It's getting there....but then you'll see him think he is smart by making arguments that refute his agenda (like pointing out how great MJ's cast was in the GS vs. Bulls convo).

If nothing else he's free comedy.

 

[dtgold88]

To be clear, when I wrote "GOAT level" I wasn't implying that he was THE greatest in every category (although he is in many), only that he's in the discussion for GOAT in each area.

GOAT level Offense: 10-time Scoring Champion; All-Time leader in PPG during the Regular Season AND Playoffs, shot 50% for his career as a high-volume shot-taker, #2 all-time in OBPM, #4 in WS, #2 in OWS in Playoffs, etc., etc.

GOAT level Defense: 9-time First Team All Defense, DPOY winner with 4 seasons Top 3 voting. #1 all-time in regular season Blocks per game for a Guard, #2 all-time in career BLK for a Guard, #3 all-time in career Steals and STL per game, 3-time league-leader in Steals, only player with 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in the same season TWICE, #2 all-time Defensive WIn Shares for a Guard, etc., etc.

GOAT level Winner: Undefeated in the Finals (6-0)... only star player with at least 3 Finals appearances to never lose. Only 70 win team to win a Championship; went virtually the entire decade of the 90's without losing 3 games in a row (during RS and Playoffs). Won 25 of 26 playoff series' during the 90's, taken to 7 games only two (2) times, etc., etc.

GOAT level Stats/Advanced Metrics: #1 in PPG, #5 all-time in career Points, #4 all-time in career Steals and STL per game, #2 in FG Made per game (#1 in Playoffs), #2 in PER, #2 in WS per 48 (#1 in Playoffs), #2 in BPM and OBPM (#1 in Playoffs), #2 all-time in VORP (regular season and Playoffs), #2 all-time in Usage Rate (RS and Playoffs), #2 in eFG% all-time (#1 in Playoffs), led league in FG made 9 times, led league in PPG 10 times, led league in PER and Usage 7 times, led league in WS and WS48 eith (8) times, OWS, BPM, OBPM and Vorp 9 times, etc., etc... all in just 13 "full" seasons.

GOAT level Awards/Accolades: A total of 26 major awards (more than any other player) in just 13 "full" seasons, including 11 combined RS and Finals MVP's (more than any other player); undisputed Finals MVP every time he reached the Finals; 19 combined First-Time All NBA and Defense, etc., etc.

GOAT level Skills: Elite Handles, elite Footwork, elite Hops, excellent Passer, GOAT Scorer (including lethal ability at the rim, lethal in the post, lethal mid-range shot, extremely Efficient (especially considering how many shots he took), elite level Turnover/Usage rate, etc., etc.

GOAT level Athleticism: Does this even need an explanation... if it does then you have no business discussing hoops.

GOAT level Clutch: This too should need no explanation but the 1989 "buzzer-beater" jumper in series clinching Game 5 vs. Cavs; Game 3 1991 Finals game-tying jumper to send game into OT, two Free Throws in Game 2 the (God disquised as) 1986 game vs. Boston with no time on clock to send game to OT; Game 1 buzzer-beater in 97 Finals; Game 6 game-winner in 98 Finals... all-time NBA leader with 9 game-winning buzzer beaters in his NBA career (RS and Playoffs combined); 28 total game-winners, shot 50% (9-18) on game-tying or go-ahead ahots in the final 24 seconds of the 4th quarter or OT during the Playoffs, etc., etc.

GOAT level Iconic/Legendary performances: "The "God disguised as Jordan" game against Boston, "The Shot" game-winner-series clincher vs. Cavs in 89, and The Shot II" Playoff against the Cavs, "The Flu Game" in the 97 Finals vs. Utah, the Shrug" game in the 92 Finals vs. Portland, "The Last Shot/Pose" game-winning/series clinching shot in the 98 Finals vs. Utah, etc., etc.

GOAT level Impact (on the sport): Again, no explanation should be needed

Zero weakness/flaws in his game: Let's make it easy... why don't you go ahead and list Jordan's flaws/weaknesses if you disagree with the premise.

Never lost to a Lower Seed: Fact... look it up

Lost the first 3 games of the 90-91 season and NEVER lost 3 in a row again during the entire decade of the 90's (regular season / playoffs included): Fact... look it up.

Go ahead and tell me what is "not factual", then go ahead and eplain why Jordan (allegedly) wasn't GOAT level in each category, AND finally... pick a player (any player) and let's see how they stack up.

I'll start:

LeBron: Not a GOAT level Defender, most definitely not a GOAT level Winner, didn't/doesn't have GOAT level skills, nor does he have GOAT level iconic moments, nor does/did he have a GOAT level impact on the sport AND he definitely has plenty of flaws/weakneses.

In other words he's not close to Jordan.

Who else you got?

Nice rant....but cannot really read much until you can come to grips on fact vs. opinion dynamic.

 

[dtgold88]

We're talking about Jordan, Pippen, Rodman (3 GOAT level defenders) and Harper (and exceptional defender). These guys were all extremely athletic and versatile and quick; they were all exceptional on-ball defenders, exceptional at playing the passing lanes, and able to rotate / help with ease. They were also known for for their full and half-court traps, enabling them to control the Pace and force the Offense into sets/shots they weren't comfortable with.. and on the flipside the Warriors Defense would have no answer for Jordan, Pippen or Kukoc, while Rodman would dominate the boards.

It would be a great series no question, but at the end of the day who is gonna bet against Jordan?

Not me...

It's almost as though you know how great MJ's supporting cast was.......makes sense since they won 55 without him.