Nate Silver does the math: SGA is playing like MJ

[tlance]

So let's see if I got this straight:

- Missing the playoffs 4 times = not on LeBron
- Losing to lower seeds 4 times = not on LeBron
- Getting swept 2 times in the Finals = not on LeBron
- Getting taken to a Game 7 eight (8) times = not on LeBron
- 6 Finals losses = not on LeBron
- Playing on bad to below-average to just average Defensive teams 7 out of the past 11 seasons = not on LeBron
- Having several flaws/weaknesses as a Player = not on LeBron

On the flipside:

- All of Jordan's accomplishments = because of his superior / far more talented (than the opponents') teammates

Have I got that right?

Well, what's interesting is that LeBron has played alongside seven (7) different All NBA caliber teammates (while still in their prime), 8 different All Star teammates, and easily 12-14 future/current HOFERS.

Jordan, meanwhile, played alongside one (1) All NBA player (Pippen), one (1) All Star teammate (Pippen), and 6 HOFERS (Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc primarily). He played alongside George Gervin for 18 games and 11 Playoff "minutes" during the Ice Man's final season in 1986, Artis Gilmore for 24 games in 1988 (Gilmore's last year in the league), and 43-year old Robert Parish for 18 "minutes" in the 97 Playoffs (during The Chief's final NBA season).

So tell me again why LeBron has ANY argument for GOAT (over Jordan)... because all I'm reading are his fans making excuse after excuse after excuse for all of the black-eyes, failures and shortcomings on LeBron's resume (despite playing alongside a boatload of All-Star/HOF/All NBA teammates) while at the same time giving Pippen (and a roster of specialists and role players) all the credit for everything Jordan accomplished.

Hate to break it to ya, but that's not a very convincng argument. In fact it's not an argument at all... it's just excuse after excuse after excuse for LeBron, and as noted, GOAT's aren't supposed to have excuses.

GOAT debate isn’t only about team accomplishments. It is an important part of the resume, but only part.

You are punishing a player for losing to superior teams.

Jordan lost to superior teams plenty in his career too.

 

[trojanfan12]

Simmer down son, and read the thread / my posts with context.

20/7/6 on 48%/34%/71% is what Pip averaged from 91-98. Reaves this season dropped 20/5/6 on 46%/38%/88%

Make of it what you will, but the facts are the facts.

lol @your "context".

How come you didn't include defense?

 

[Stakesarehigh]

lol @your "context".

How come you didn't include defense?

Is this fucker trying to compare Reaves to Pippen? Lol

 

[trojanfan12]

I have yet to read/hear a compelling argument for LeBron over Jordan "or" close to him (let alone very close) as the GOAT.

That's because you clearly don't know shit about basketball.

 

[trojanfan12]

Is this fucker trying to compare Reaves to Pippen? Lol

He sure did.

Of course, he didn't include defense in the equation.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

He sure did.

Of course, he didn't include defense in the equation.

Or era? Phew.

Austin Reaves will never be anything remotely close to Pippen

 

[trojanfan12]

Or era? Phew.

Austin Reaves will never be anything remotely close to Pippen

Yeah, looking at pure statistics without context for eras, Reaves is Pippens equal offensively. But when you factor in the era...it's still reasonably close, but advantage goes to Pippen.

But on defense...Reaves tries hard and is a fairly solid help/team defender...but Pippen is one of the best defenders in league history and could defend 1-5.

 

[MAGA2024]

Sure if the Lakers weren't laughably past their prime as opposed to the Spurs.

You sure about that?

91 Lakers
Mychal Thompson: 36
Magic Johnson: 31
Teagle: 30
James Worthy: 29
Byron Scott: 29
Sam Perkins: 29
A.C. Green: 27
Vlade Divac: 22
Campbell: 22

Bulls destroyed those "old geezers" in 5 games.

SMH

Now let's check out some of those Spurs teams...

2014 Spurs
Duncan: 37
Ginobili: 36
Bonner: 33
Parker: 31
Diaw: 31
Belinelli: 27
Green: 26
Kawhi: 22

That team CRUSHED (absolute prime) LeBron, (absolute prime) Bosh, and 32 year old Wade (still playing at an All Star level), although the Heat beat essentially those Spurs the previous year.

Still... BOTH those Spurs' teams' main players were much older than the top guys from the 91 Lakers.

Hell... even the 2007 Spurs were older than the 91 Lakers

2007 Spurs
Horry: 36
Barry: 35
Bowen: 35
Finley: 33
Oberto: 31
Duncan: 30
Elson: 30
Ginobili: 29
Parker: 24

Once again... because Jordan and the Bulls were such an unstoppable juggernaut people just blindly "assume" their competition was sub par, but nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[MAGA2024]

Yeah, looking at pure statistics without context for eras, Reaves is Pippens equal offensively. But when you factor in the era...it's still reasonably close, but advantage goes to Pippen.

But on defense...Reaves tries hard and is a fairly solid help/team defender...but Pippen is one of the best defenders in league history and could defend 1-5.

The main argument I'm having in this thread centers on the claim that the 90's Bulls (outside of Jordan and Pippen) were (allegedly) "by far more talented" than their competition.

My contention all along is that the Bulls' success was 1) due to Jordan, and 2) because of their Defense.

But guess what? Playing great Defense does NOT require superior talent or skill. On the contrary it requires Heart, Effort and Focus.

Jordan inspired his teammates Defensively. LeBron does not... and he hasn't done so since his Miami days.

One more reason why he's not close to Jordan as GOAT.

...and again, Reaves isn't a pimple on Pippen's ass as an overall player; however my point in bringing up his Offense this year was to illustrate the fact that the Lakers had a very formindable Offensive team. What they lacked is Defense.... but but but we already know it's not LeBron's fault he couldn't inspire his teammates to play Defense with Heart, Effort and Focus.

I mean, after all, why would the GOAT need to worry about Defense when his fans will bend over backwards to make excuses for him over and over and over again.

SMH

 

[Stakesarehigh]

You sure about that?

91 Lakers
Mychal Thompson: 36
Magic Johnson: 31
Teagle: 30
James Worthy: 29
Byron Scott: 29
Sam Perkins: 29
A.C. Green: 27
Vlade Divac: 22
Campbell: 22

Bulls destroyed those "old geezers" in 5 games.

SMH

Now let's check out some of those Spurs teams...

2014 Spurs
Duncan: 37
Ginobili: 36
Bonner: 33
Parker: 31
Diaw: 31
Belinelli: 27
Green: 26
Kawhi: 22

That team CRUSHED (absolute prime) LeBron, (absolute prime) Bosh, and 32 year old Wade (still playing at an All Star level), although the Heat beat essentially those Spurs the previous year.

Still... BOTH those Spurs' teams' main players were much older than the top guys from the 91 Lakers.

Hell... even the 2007 Spurs were older than the 91 Lakers

2007 Spurs
Horry: 36
Barry: 35
Bowen: 35
Finley: 33
Oberto: 31
Duncan: 30
Elson: 30
Ginobili: 29
Parker: 24

Once again... because Jordan and the Bulls were such an unstoppable juggernaut people just blindly "assume" their competition was sub par, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Magic got HIV bruh. The Lakers didn't win a single playoff series after that with that group. The Spurs went to the conf finals as late as 2017

Sooooo yeah. The Spurs were WAAAAY better.

 

[MAGA2024]

Magic got HIV bruh. The Lakers didn't win a single playoff series after that with that group. The Spurs went to the conf finals as late as 2017

Sooooo yeah. The Spurs were WAAAAY better.

Magic was 1st Team All NBA, and runner-up in MVP voting in 1991 (to Jordan)... he led the Lakers to 58 wins (3rd best in the NBA), and the #5 Offense / #5 Defense that season, with the #3 Net Rating overall. In the Playoffs he averaged 22/8/13. Magic was still a Top 5 player in the game in 91, and the Lakers were a Top 3 team that beat the #2 Net Rated Blazers in the WCF.

But you're saying the Spurs were "WAAAAY better" than the 91 Lakers because the "92 Lakers" lost Magic to AIDS.

Oookay then...

That's an interesting take. Suffice to say I'm not buying it.

You LeBron fans are making excuses for Jordan Winning, then turning around and making excuse after excuse for LeBron Losing! That alone should be a clear indication that James isn't on Jordan's level, not even close.

Sorry if the truth bothers some of you...

 

[tlance]

Magic was 1st Team All NBA, and runner-up in MVP voting in 1991 (to Jordan)... he led the Lakers to 58 wins (3rd best in the NBA), and the #5 Offense / #5 Defense that season, with the #3 Net Rating overall. In the Playoffs he averaged 22/8/13. Magic was still a Top 5 player in the game in 91, and the Lakers were a Top 3 team that beat the #2 Net Rated Blazers in the WCF.

But you're saying the Spurs were "WAAAAY better" than the 91 Lakers because the "92 Lakers" lost Magic to AIDS.

Oookay then...

That's an interesting take. Suffice to say I'm not buying it.

You LeBron fans are making excuses for Jordan Winning, then turning around and making excuse after excuse for LeBron Losing! That alone should be a clear indication that James isn't on Jordan's level, not even close.

Sorry if the truth bothers some of you...

You do get that usually top 3 teams make the Finals every year though, right?

Doesn’t address the point about the gap between the Bulls and their competition.

Admittedly, the first title and the last were the 2 years where they played a team that was close to their equals. Mostly because the Pippen/Grant/Armstrong type players were still an ascending in ‘91 and Pippen was a shell of his former self by playoff time ‘98.

But the other 4 titles?

Bulls were hands down superior to everyone they faced.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Magic was 1st Team All NBA, and runner-up in MVP voting in 1991 (to Jordan)... he led the Lakers to 58 wins (3rd best in the NBA), and the #5 Offense / #5 Defense that season, with the #3 Net Rating overall. In the Playoffs he averaged 22/8/13. Magic was still a Top 5 player in the game in 91, and the Lakers were a Top 3 team that beat the #2 Net Rated Blazers in the WCF.

But you're saying the Spurs were "WAAAAY better" than the 91 Lakers because the "92 Lakers" lost Magic to AIDS.

Oookay then...

That's an interesting take. Suffice to say I'm not buying it.

You LeBron fans are making excuses for Jordan Winning, then turning around and making excuse after excuse for LeBron Losing! That alone should be a clear indication that James isn't on Jordan's level, not even close.

Sorry if the truth bothers some of you...

The truth is Magic had a poor offensive series because he was likely feeling the affects of having a deadly virus. The Pistons swept that same Lakers team two years earlier. You are literally the ONLY person I've seen try to argue the 91 Lakers are anywhere in the same universe as the 2014 Spurs. Again, ZERO playoff series wins after 91

 

[msgkings322]

You do get that usually top 3 teams make the Finals every year though, right?

Doesn’t address the point about the gap between the Bulls and their competition.

Admittedly, the first title and the last were the 2 years where they played a team that was close to their equals. Mostly because the Pippen/Grant/Armstrong type players were still an ascending in ‘91 and Pippen was a shell of his former self by playoff time ‘98.

But the other 4 titles?

Bulls were hands down superior to everyone they faced.

To be fair part of his argument is those Bulls teams were superior in large part because of the greatness of the player he is pimping.

Still doesn’t make him correct about a massive delta between these two players careers

 

[Stakesarehigh]

To be fair part of his argument is those Bulls teams were superior in large part because of the greatness of the player he is pimping.

Still doesn’t make him correct about a massive delta between these two players careers

MJ was great. Weve all said a million times you can easily call him the GOAT

There is a zero percent chance MJ carries the 2007 Cavs to a title or the 2015 Cavs minus Love and Kyrie to a title, or beats the 2017 Dubs with the roster LeBron had.

Do i think prime MJ and the Heat win against the Mavs? Yes.

Id go further and say MJ aint beating those Celtics either.

Additionally LeBron gets ZERO credit for effectively ending the 2000s Pistons

 

[dtgold88]

So you think the T'Wolves should have beaten the Lakers (rather easily) in 5 games this year, and you believe the Cavs should have lost to Orlando and Boston (in 09 and 10). Fair enough... the only thing you haven't explained is, why?

And Jordan can't be penalized for BEING the unstoppable juggernaut of his era simply by saying none of those other teams won, or Jordan had more talent around him.

In 98 the Jazz went through the Dream/Barkley/Drexler Rockets, took care of the Robinson/Duncan Spurs in 5 (who would go on to win the Championship the next year), then SWEPT the 61-win Shaq/Kobe Lakers with four (4) All Stars.

The 97 Jazz beat those same Shaq-led Lakers and those same Rockets to get to the Bulls, where they got spanked in 6.

In 1996 the Payton/Kemp-led Sonics beat those same Utah Jazz in the WCF after sweeping the 2-time Champion Dream/Drexler Rockets... only to get stomped on by the Bulls.

I could go on but I think it's pretty clear the Bulls faced fearsome competition in the Finals. But those teams didn't win because of one man... and FTR every one of those HOFERS and All Time Greats will tell you the same thing.

Also, Jordan took the Bulls to their first Championship withOut a Top 75 player... which Pippen certainly was NOT at that stage of his career.

LeBron's done some nice things no question, and a few GOAT level accomplishments as well... and his longevity stands ALONE as GOAT, so he is definitely one of the greatest ever. He's just not on Jordan's level when you really dissect their respective games and careers.

There's no shame in taking a back seat to "God disguised as Michael Jordan", as Bird said,

Had to stop after that first comment as you have gone well beyond irrational standards. are you really ripping 40-year-old Lebron for only getting the Lakers into playoffs as a 3 seed. Before I can go further, please enlighten me how far MJ took Washington as a 38 and then 39-year-old. If you are not afraid to answer that then please tell me how far his teams ever went in his career without Pippen to hold his hand.

 

[dtgold88]

No one cares about Wizard's Jordan, with respect to his GOAT status. That would be like penalizing LeBron for not making the playoffs his first 2 years in the league. It comes down to Jordan accomplishing more in just 11 "full" seasons with the Bulls than LeBron has in 22 seasons. That's not irrational, what's wrong with you? That's a fact.

You just tried to penalize 40-year-old Lebron for only getting his team to playoffs as the 3 seed but losing round 1, but cannot penalize a younger MJ in a very weak East that you tried to call much tougher.

You are a walking double standard......also lied and got caught. Again.

 

[dtgold88]

No, it would be exactly like penalizing LeBron for losing to the Wolves this year.which you just did.

He is 40.

kind of ninjad.

 

[dtgold88]

Sorry, there is no case for LeBron unless we look at "volume" stats (due to playing longer) and ignore everything else, because that's the ONLY thing LeBron has on Jordan... and that's simply not enough; not by a longshot.

Being the better passer and rebounder and more efficient shooter (not volume stats) doesn't count?

How about being able to take a far less talented team to the Finals?

 

[dtgold88]

LeBron was playing alongside a Top 3-5 player in the game in his absolute prime AND a #3 guy (Reaves) who averaged 20/5/6 on 46%/36%/88% shooting (those are prime Scottie Pippen numbers Offensively, BTW)... not to mention (again) the Lakerrs were the HIGHER seed, and were favored to win by Vegas and all the analysts.

Oh, and BTW... this is the same T'Wolves team that just got spanked last night by the Curry-less Warriors.

But you don't think that's a black eye against LeBron and YET you call my arguments one-sided? Wow...

The wow is you cannot see how incredibly one sided your arguments are. Can you explain why Lebron could never even win a playoff series without hand held by Pippen? Lebron went to Finals with Mo Williams as his #2.