Nate Silver does the math: SGA is playing like MJ

[msgkings322]

wish you were not so scared to answer my question so I could read what I'm sure are some pearls of wisdom from you that I just know are completely rational and objective with no MJ slant.

One of you guys that isn't blocked by @Mr. Friscus should sic him on @MAGA2024

They have very similar pedantic and detailed posting styles but from opposite directions (MAGA is "pro" MJ, Friscus is "anti"), they should be the ones battling here

Both are MAGAs too so that variable isn't relevant lol, it's not political for them

 

[dtgold88]

Again... I answered your question two (2) times already. I won't waste MY time answering it a thrid time.

Told you I stopped reading if you did not START your reply by answering it....but did decide to find it and did. You started off OK by acknowledging the obvious but then went into your MJ biased comments.

Happen to agree was 1 time Lebron had a rough series against a team they should have beaten. But most were against incredibly tough opponents and few like Seattle, Portland, Utah, etc.who were teams that did not win titles in other seasons.

and of course can you name the time when MJ ever dragged a team TO the Finals without top 75 all time player Pippen to hold his hand? Lebron dragged a team with Mo Williams as 2nd best player to Finals and won 2 Finals games with Delevadova as his Robin. MJ ever even win a playoff series with no Pippen?

 

[dtgold88]

The East during the 90's was still vastly superior to the East during LeBron's run.

Cool...but MJs last years were in the 2000s and the best team in East his first year with Washington there was the juggernaut Nets with a 52-30 record. The next year was Detroit with their 50-32 record (only team with 50 wins).

Far better East?

I realize this is not likely for someone as irrational as you but possible you might man up and own you were wrong?

 

[tlance]

So go ahead and refute what I wrote about LeBron, if you think my points are so one-sided.

The simple truth is there's no argument for LeBron James over Jordan. None.

As players LeBron has several flaws: Below league-average FT shooter... below league-average 3-point shooter... shoots just 38% from beyond 3 feet from the basket for his career (36% in the playoffs)... inconsistent to mediocre to just plain bad Defense for at least the past 10 years... handles and footwork never great, etc., etc. Jordan? The absolute WORST thing you could say about him is that he was "just average" as a 3-point shooter (relative to league average). Otherwise he was excellent to elite to GOAT level in literally every facet of the game.

As for Team Success Jordan won every single time his team was favored/supposed to win, and/or had the higher seed AND several times he won as the lower seed. James, as has been noted, lost numerous times when he shouldn't have.

What's left? LeBron is the GOAT because he played longer and racked up better "volume" stats? Um, no... so did Kobe, Jabbar, Malone, etc.

You disagree? state your case.

I have.

You just ignored it.

Saying there is no argument for LeBron is absolutely ridiculous.

And like all the objective people on here say all the time…

Pick either one, make your case. Can’t be wrong.

Say it isn’t close?

You are definitively wrong.

 

[dtgold88]

I have.

You just ignored it.

Saying there is no argument for LeBron is absolutely ridiculous.

And like all the objective people on here say all the time…

Pick either one, make your case. Can’t be wrong.

Say it isn’t close?

You are definitively wrong.

Yep...always say only ones I push back on are those who say shouldn't even be a discussion. On either side. Though don't find many who think GOAT is Lebron who say not even a discussion I don't think.

 

[MAGA2024]

Told you I stopped reading if you did not START your reply by answering it....but did decide to find it and did. You started off OK by acknowledging the obvious but then went into your MJ biased comments.

Happen to agree was 1 time Lebron had a rough series against a team they should have beaten. But most were against incredibly tough opponents and few like Seattle, Portland, Utah, etc.who were teams that did not win titles in other seasons.

and of course can you name the time when MJ ever dragged a team TO the Finals without top 75 all time player Pippen to hold his hand? Lebron dragged a team with Mo Williams as 2nd best player to Finals and won 2 Finals games with Delevadova as his Robin. MJ ever even win a playoff series with no Pippen?

So you think the T'Wolves should have beaten the Lakers (rather easily) in 5 games this year, and you believe the Cavs should have lost to Orlando and Boston (in 09 and 10). Fair enough... the only thing you haven't explained is, why?

And Jordan can't be penalized for BEING the unstoppable juggernaut of his era simply by saying none of those other teams won, or Jordan had more talent around him.

In 98 the Jazz went through the Dream/Barkley/Drexler Rockets, took care of the Robinson/Duncan Spurs in 5 (who would go on to win the Championship the next year), then SWEPT the 61-win Shaq/Kobe Lakers with four (4) All Stars.

The 97 Jazz beat those same Shaq-led Lakers and those same Rockets to get to the Bulls, where they got spanked in 6.

In 1996 the Payton/Kemp-led Sonics beat those same Utah Jazz in the WCF after sweeping the 2-time Champion Dream/Drexler Rockets... only to get stomped on by the Bulls.

I could go on but I think it's pretty clear the Bulls faced fearsome competition in the Finals. But those teams didn't win because of one man... and FTR every one of those HOFERS and All Time Greats will tell you the same thing.

Also, Jordan took the Bulls to their first Championship withOut a Top 75 player... which Pippen certainly was NOT at that stage of his career.

LeBron's done some nice things no question, and a few GOAT level accomplishments as well... and his longevity stands ALONE as GOAT, so he is definitely one of the greatest ever. He's just not on Jordan's level when you really dissect their respective games and careers.

There's no shame in taking a back seat to "God disguised as Michael Jordan", as Bird said,

 

[MAGA2024]

Cool...but MJs last years were in the 2000s and the best team in East his first year with Washington there was the juggernaut Nets with a 52-30 record. The next year was Detroit with their 50-32 record (only team with 50 wins).

Far better East?

I realize this is not likely for someone as irrational as you but possible you might man up and own you were wrong?

No one cares about Wizard's Jordan, with respect to his GOAT status. That would be like penalizing LeBron for not making the playoffs his first 2 years in the league. It comes down to Jordan accomplishing more in just 11 "full" seasons with the Bulls than LeBron has in 22 seasons. That's not irrational, what's wrong with you? That's a fact.

 

[MAGA2024]

I have.

You just ignored it.

Saying there is no argument for LeBron is absolutely ridiculous.

And like all the objective people on here say all the time…

Pick either one, make your case. Can’t be wrong.

Say it isn’t close?

You are definitively wrong.

Sorry, there is no case for LeBron unless we look at "volume" stats (due to playing longer) and ignore everything else, because that's the ONLY thing LeBron has on Jordan... and that's simply not enough; not by a longshot.

 

[tlance]

No one cares about Wizard's Jordan, with respect to his GOAT status. That would be like penalizing LeBron for not making the playoffs his first 2 years in the league. It comes down to Jordan accomplishing more in just 11 "full" seasons with the Bulls than LeBron has in 22 seasons. That's not irrational, what's wrong with you? That's a fact.

No, it would be exactly like penalizing LeBron for losing to the Wolves this year.which you just did.

He is 40.

 

[tlance]

Sorry, there is no case for LeBron unless we look at "volume" stats (due to playing longer) and ignore everything else, because that's the ONLY thing LeBron has on Jordan... and that's simply not enough; not by a longshot.

Or, if we actually look at their accomplishments objectively instead of through a homer lense.

Of course there is a strong case for LeBron.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

So you think the T'Wolves should have beaten the Lakers (rather easily) in 5 games this year, and you believe the Cavs should have lost to Orlando and Boston (in 09 and 10). Fair enough... the only thing you haven't explained is, why?

And Jordan can't be penalized for BEING the unstoppable juggernaut of his era simply by saying none of those other teams won, or Jordan had more talent around him.

In 98 the Jazz went through the Dream/Barkley/Drexler Rockets, took care of the Robinson/Duncan Spurs in 5 (who would go on to win the Championship the next year), then SWEPT the 61-win Shaq/Kobe Lakers with four (4) All Stars.

The 97 Jazz beat those same Shaq-led Lakers and those same Rockets to get to the Bulls, where they got spanked in 6.

In 1996 the Payton/Kemp-led Sonics beat those same Utah Jazz in the WCF after sweeping the 2-time Champion Dream/Drexler Rockets... only to get stomped on by the Bulls.

I could go on but I think it's pretty clear the Bulls faced fearsome competition in the Finals. But those teams didn't win because of one man... and FTR every one of those HOFERS and All Time Greats will tell you the same thing.

Also, Jordan took the Bulls to their first Championship withOut a Top 75 player... which Pippen certainly was NOT at that stage of his career.

LeBron's done some nice things no question, and a few GOAT level accomplishments as well... and his longevity stands ALONE as GOAT, so he is definitely one of the greatest ever. He's just not on Jordan's level when you really dissect their respective games and careers.

There's no shame in taking a back seat to "God disguised as Michael Jordan", as Bird said,

The only thing certain in quality of competition is Lebron has faced substantially better and dynastic teams in the finals than MJ. When MJ faced those teams in the East he lost.

Lebron is now 40. If we are going to hold this year against him career wise (marks he and he alone are setting) then the same holds for Jordan in Washington.


But this thread is about SGA. People such as yourself hold this sport back because you don't watch it now and want to make everything about Jordan and Lebron.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Additionally there is virtually no chance the 38 percent figure is correct. Looking at Jordan's 97 98 season he shot 41.3 percent on non rim attempts, this year AT 40 LeBron shot 42

 

[MAGA2024]

No, it would be exactly like penalizing LeBron for losing to the Wolves this year.which you just did.

He is 40.

LeBron was playing alongside a Top 3-5 player in the game in his absolute prime AND a #3 guy (Reaves) who averaged 20/5/6 on 46%/36%/88% shooting (those are prime Scottie Pippen numbers Offensively, BTW)... not to mention (again) the Lakerrs were the HIGHER seed, and were favored to win by Vegas and all the analysts.

Oh, and BTW... this is the same T'Wolves team that just got spanked last night by the Curry-less Warriors.

But you don't think that's a black eye against LeBron and YET you call my arguments one-sided? Wow...

 

[tlance]

LeBron was playing alongside a Top 3-5 player in the game in his absolute prime AND a #3 guy (Reaves) who averaged 20/5/6 on 46%/36%/88% shooting (those are prime Scottie Pippen numbers Offensively, BTW)... not to mention (again) the Lakerrs were the HIGHER seed, and were favored to win by Vegas and all the analysts.

Oh, and BTW... this is the same T'Wolves team that just got spanked last night by the Curry-less Warriors.

But you don't think that's a black eye against LeBron and YET you call my arguments one-sided? Wow...

Yep.

Proving it once again saying Reaves posted prime Pippen numbers.

You have zero ability to comprehend player value if you think there is any comparison.

LeBron played every bit as well or better than the top 3 teammate he had.

Lots of blame for that loss. 40 year old LeBron ain’t the one

Lakers won 1 more game than Minnesota who went on deep playoff run last year and you acting like it is some terrible loss.

 

[MAGA2024]

Or, if we actually look at their accomplishments objectively instead of through a homer lense.

Of course there is a strong case for LeBron.

How am I not being objective when it comes to LeBron?

Did he have a virtual cakewalk TO the Finals while playing in the EC? Yes, he did.
Did he go 4-6 in the Finals DESPITE having multiple HOF level teammates around him in Miami/Cleveland/LA? Yes, he did.
Did he lose to LOWER seeds 4 times? Yes, he did.
Did he fail to make the Playoffs 4 times? Yes, he did.
Does he have several glaring flaws/weaknesses in his game? Yes, he does.
Does he have multiple terrible "individual" performances in Playoffs/Finals series losses? Yes, he does.
Does he have as many or more Awards/Accolades/Championships than Jordan? No, he doesn't (despite playing many more years).
Does he have as many or more legendary/iconic/clutch moments than Jordan? No, he doesn't (despite playing in 113 more Playoff games).
Did he transform the way the game is played like Jordan? No, he didn't.
Did he turn the sport into a global phenomenon like Jordan? No, he didn't.
Does anyone really "Wanna Be Like LeBron" (over Mike)? No, they don't.

So where exactly is this "strong case" for LeBron over Jordan unless, as noted, we only count "volume" stats and ignore everything else?

 

[MAGA2024]

The only thing certain in quality of competition is Lebron has faced substantially better and dynastic teams in the finals than MJ. When MJ faced those teams in the East he lost.

Lebron is now 40. If we are going to hold this year against him career wise (marks he and he alone are setting) then the same holds for Jordan in Washington.


But this thread is about SGA. People such as yourself hold this sport back because you don't watch it now and want to make everything about Jordan and Lebron.

The ONLY Finals opponents LeBron faced who you could say were "substantially better" than the Bulls' Finals opponents were the Durant/Curry Warriors... and the truth is, had James not been playing in the EC all those years (when it was arguably the weakest it's ever been) he would never have even made the Finals so many times.

Furthermore, when Jordan was facing the Celtics / Pistons in the EC (teams that were stacked with 4-5 HOFERS) he didn't have anywhere near the caliber of talent around him that LeBron had when he was facing the Spurs/Warriors in the Finals.

This year the Lakers were the #3 seed and LeBron had a Top 3-5 player (and a #3 guy putting up prime Scottie Pippen numbers) around him, yet LA got embarrassed by a lower seed that just lost to the Curry-less Warriors. That is absolutely a stain on James' resume.

LOL... the level of excuse-making for LeBron is off the charts.

SMH.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

The ONLY Finals opponents LeBron faced who you could say were "substantially better" than the Bulls' Finals opponents were the Durant/Curry Warriors... and the truth is, had James not been playing in the EC all those years (when it was arguably the weakest it's ever been) he would never have even made the Finals so many times.

Furthermore, when Jordan was facing the Celtics / Pistons in the EC (teams that were stacked with 4-5 HOFERS) he didn't have anywhere near the caliber of talent around him that LeBron had when he was facing the Spurs/Warriors in the Finals.

This year the Lakers were the #3 seed and LeBron had a Top 3-5 player (and a #3 guy putting up prime Scottie Pippen numbers) around him, yet LA got embarrassed by a lower seed that just lost to the Curry-less Warriors. That is absolutely a stain on James' resume.

LOL... the level of excuse-making for LeBron is off the charts.

SMH.

The Spurs were substantially better. Not even a discussion.

 

[MAGA2024]

Additionally there is virtually no chance the 38 percent figure is correct. Looking at Jordan's 97 98 season he shot 41.3 percent on non rim attempts, this year AT 40 LeBron shot 42

It's absolutely correct:

LeBron James Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of LeBron James. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

Regular Season (career)
35% of shots from 0-3 feet = .742%
13.4% of shots from 3-10 feet = .432%
9.7% of shots from 10-16 feet = .372%
18.1% of shots from 16 feet - 3PT = .386%
23.9% of shots from 3-point range = .349%

Playoffs (career)
35.2% of shots from 0-3 feet = .736%
14.3% of shots from 3-10 feet = .411%
9.2% of shots from 10-16 feet = .363%
17.3% of shots from 16 feet - 3PT = .378%
24.1% of shots from 3-point range = .333%

 

[MAGA2024]

Yep.

Proving it once again saying Reaves posted prime Pippen numbers.

You have zero ability to comprehend player value if you think there is any comparison.

LeBron played every bit as well or better than the top 3 teammate he had.

Lots of blame for that loss. 40 year old LeBron ain’t the one

Lakers won 1 more game than Minnesota who went on deep playoff run last year and you acting like it is some terrible loss.

You keep talking empty rhetoric with zero fact/substance to back it up:

Pippen: 20/7/6 on 48%/34%/71% = 1991-98, ages 25-32
Reaves: 20/5/6 on 46%/38%/88% = this season as Lakers' #3 man

That said, if the series was at least competitive you might have a case. But it wasn't... the Lakers got embarrassed by a decent T'Wolves squad... and that's ABSOLUTELY a black-eye.

How is world can you justify it not being so...? You haven't... because you can't.

 

[MAGA2024]

The Spurs were substantially better. Not even a discussion.

Based on what, exactly? You can't just go around making blanket statements without backing it up. Well you can I suppose, but you'll have no credibility.