Nate Silver does the math: SGA is playing like MJ

[msgkings322]

Someone needs to get @Mr. Friscus on this guy

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Based on what, exactly? You can't just go around making blanket statements without backing it up. Well you can I suppose, but you'll have no credibility.

5 titles? You serious Clark?

 

[MAGA2024]

Someone needs to get @Mr. Friscus on this guy

?????

Bring on Mr. Friscus... lol... I have hard-core facts and substance on my side, not fluff, hype, empty rhetoric and excuses.

 

[msgkings322]

?????

Bring on Mr. Friscus... lol... I have hard-core facts and substance on my side, not fluff, hype, empty rhetoric and excuses.

He posts like you do so I want to see the battle lol

 

[thunderc]

Still looking for Lebron in the thread title, still not there

 

[MAGA2024]

5 titles? You serious Clark?

And...?

the 98 Jazz crushed the Duncan/Robinson Spurs (before Jordan and the Bulls crushed them)... and the following year SA won the Championship.

Were the 2019 Raptors and 2021 Bucks also better (than any team Jordan faced in the Finals) simply because the won a Championship? Plus the Spurs won 2 of those Championships AGAINST LeBron, so that's not exactly a ringing endorsement. lol

Only the Durant/Curry Warriors were "significantly" better (as you said); however when you factor in the talent LeBron was playing alongside when he made the Finals (outside of 2007), it's not like we're talking about the 86 and 87 Bulls going up against Bird's Celtics.

People massively under-rate Jordan's Finals opponents because they didn't beat the juggernaut Bulls... as if it's Jordan's fault he / his teams were so great... meanwhile those same people will make excuse after excuse for LeBron/his team's sub-par performances in 09, 10, 11 and 25.

GOAT's don't need excuse after excuse made for them...

 

[Stakesarehigh]

And...?

the 98 Jazz crushed the Duncan/Robinson Spurs (before Jordan and the Bulls crushed them)... and the following year SA won the Championship.

Were the 2019 Raptors and 2021 Bucks also better (than any team Jordan faced in the Finals) simply because the won a Championship? Plus the Spurs won 2 of those Championships AGAINST LeBron, so that's not exactly a ringing endorsement. lol

Only the Durant/Curry Warriors were "significantly" better (as you said); however when you factor in the talent LeBron was playing alongside when he made the Finals (outside of 2007), it's not like we're talking about the 86 and 87 Bulls going up against Bird's Celtics.

People massively under-rate Jordan's Finals opponents because they didn't beat the juggernaut Bulls... as if it's Jordan's fault he / his teams were so great... meanwhile those same people will make excuse after excuse for LeBron/his team's sub-par performances in 09, 10, 11 and 25.

GOAT's don't need excuse after excuse made for them...

Yawn

 

[MAGA2024]

Yawn

Precisely how I feel when a poster makes a blanket statement and fails to back it up.

The Bulls demolished the 5-time Champion Lakers in the 91 Finals... using your rationale those Lakers were better than any team LeBron faced in the Finals (including those Spurs because James lost to them twice).

See how silly that logic sounds.

 

[tlance]

You keep talking empty rhetoric with zero fact/substance to back it up:

Pippen: 20/7/6 on 48%/34%/71% = 1991-98, ages 25-32
Reaves: 20/5/6 on 46%/38%/88% = this season as Lakers' #3 man

That said, if the series was at least competitive you might have a case. But it wasn't... the Lakers got embarrassed by a decent T'Wolves squad... and that's ABSOLUTELY a black-eye.

How is world can you justify it not being so...? You haven't... because you can't.

Pippen was one of the greatest defensive players of all time.

Reaves is a sieve. Legit terrible defender.

Also, his stats were boosted when he stepped up into the #2 or even 1 spots as the stars missed time. In the playoffs, when it mattered most and when Luka and LeBron were playing, he averaged 16.2, 5.4 and 3.6 on pretty terrible shooting.

Pippen’s value was his defense along with his ability to facilitate and create alongside MJ.

Of course I can. And I have.

You are just too blind to see it.

 

[msgkings322]

You keep talking empty rhetoric with zero fact/substance to back it up:

Pippen: 20/7/6 on 48%/34%/71% = 1991-98, ages 25-32
Reaves: 20/5/6 on 46%/38%/88% = this season as Lakers' #3 man

That said, if the series was at least competitive you might have a case. But it wasn't... the Lakers got embarrassed by a decent T'Wolves squad... and that's ABSOLUTELY a black-eye.

How is world can you justify it not being so...? You haven't... because you can't.

You lose a ton of credibility when you need to have Reaves and Pippen be similar value players to make your argument work lol

 

[trojanfan12]

Yep.

Proving it once again saying Reaves posted prime Pippen numbers.

You have zero ability to comprehend player value if you think there is any comparison.

LeBron played every bit as well or better than the top 3 teammate he had.

Lots of blame for that loss. 40 year old LeBron ain’t the one

Lakers won 1 more game than Minnesota who went on deep playoff run last year and you acting like it is some terrible loss.

Wait!! What?!?

He's trying to equate Austin Reaves to Scottie Pippen? Seriously?!?

I mean, I'm a Lakers fan and love me some Austin Reaves...but that's just pants on head stupid.

 

[tlance]

Wait!! What?!?

He's trying to equate Austin Reaves to Scottie Pippen? Seriously?!?

I mean, I'm a Lakers fan and love me some Austin Reaves...but that's just pants on head stupid.

Yep.

Can’t make this stuff up.

And he thinks he is winning the debate.

 

[MAGA2024]

Pippen was one of the greatest defensive players of all time.

Reaves is a sieve. Legit terrible defender.

Also, his stats were boosted when he stepped up into the #2 or even 1 spots as the stars missed time. In the playoffs, when it mattered most and when Luka and LeBron were playing, he averaged 16.2, 5.4 and 3.6 on pretty terrible shooting.

Pippen’s value was his defense along with his ability to facilitate and create alongside MJ.

Of course I can. And I have.

You are just too blind to see it.

I'm not suggesting Reaves is on Pippen's level. lol... he's not. What I'm saying is he put up stellar production for a #3 guy on the team; therefore to suggest LeBron/Lakers should be excused for losing in 5 games (without much of a fight) is absurd. It absolutely IS a knock against LeBron (and Luka too). No one picked the T'Wolves to win. It was clearly an upset by Minny, and upsets absolutely do matter when you're evaluating players for GOAT.

The Lakers' Defense was lousy all season... and that's YET another rap against LeBron. The Bulls never slacked on Defense because Jordan set the tone and the example with his relentless focus and effort on that end of the floor, which he demanded from all his teammates.

LeBron? Not so much, at least not in the last decade... and again, Defense is about hustle and effort, not talent and skill.

 

[MAGA2024]

You lose a ton of credibility when you need to have Reaves and Pippen be similar value players to make your argument work lol

Facts are facts... Reaves' Offensive production this season was on-par with what Pippen brought to the Bulls during the 90's.

When you factor in Defense and Playmaking ability Scottie rises to a completely different level of course, but the point here is that LeBron wasn't playing alongside a bunch of tomato cans.

 

[tlance]

I'm not suggesting Reaves is on Pippen's level. lol... he's not. What I'm saying is he put up stellar production for a #3 guy on the team; therefore to suggest LeBron/Lakers should be excused for losing in 5 games (without much of a fight) is absurd. It absolutely IS a knock against LeBron (and Luka too). No one picked the T'Wolves to win. It was clearly an upset by Minny, and upsets absolutely do matter when you're evaluating players for GOAT.

The Lakers' Defense was lousy all season... and that's YET another rap against LeBron. The Bulls never slacked on Defense because Jordan set the tone and the example with his relentless focus and effort on that end of the floor, which he demanded from all his teammates.

LeBron? Not so much, at least not in the last decade... and again, Defense is about hustle and effort, not talent and skill.

No. Lakers defense Not a knock on LeBron.

He is 40.

The team has no big men and Reaves and Doncic are traffic cones.

You try to blame LeBron for everything. This was not on him. He had a really good series.

The Bulls never slacked on defense because they had a team full of elite defenders and Jordan played his prime years there.

How good were the Jordan Wizards defensively?

That is what you should be comparing the current Lakers too.

But you won’t do that

 

[MAGA2024]

Wait!! What?!?

He's trying to equate Austin Reaves to Scottie Pippen? Seriously?!?

I mean, I'm a Lakers fan and love me some Austin Reaves...but that's just pants on head stupid.

Simmer down son, and read the thread / my posts with context.

20/7/6 on 48%/34%/71% is what Pip averaged from 91-98. Reaves this season dropped 20/5/6 on 46%/38%/88%

Make of it what you will, but the facts are the facts.

 

[msgkings322]

Facts are facts... Reaves' Offensive production this season was on-par with what Pippen brought to the Bulls during the 90's.

When you factor in Defense and Playmaking ability Scottie rises to a completely different level of course, but the point here is that LeBron wasn't playing alongside a bunch of tomato cans.

On the Lakers no. Those early Cavs teams absolutely and he got those tomato cans to the finals. You incorrectly undervalue any run that doesn’t result in a title.

We keep telling you MJ has obviously a legit GOAT case and probably the best one. Most of us have him as GOAT. Where you err is thinking LeBron is significantly lesser. He might be lesser, but it’s very close. Facts.

 

[MAGA2024]

No. Lakers defense Not a knock on LeBron.

He is 40.

The team has no big men and Reaves and Doncic are traffic cones.

You try to blame LeBron for everything. This was not on him. He had a really good series.

The Bulls never slacked on defense because they had a team full of elite defenders and Jordan played his prime years there.

How good were the Jordan Wizards defensively?

That is what you should be comparing the current Lakers too.

But you won’t do that

So let's see if I got this straight:

- Missing the playoffs 4 times = not on LeBron
- Losing to lower seeds 4 times = not on LeBron
- Getting swept 2 times in the Finals = not on LeBron
- Getting taken to a Game 7 eight (8) times = not on LeBron
- 6 Finals losses = not on LeBron
- Playing on bad to below-average to just average Defensive teams 7 out of the past 11 seasons = not on LeBron
- Having several flaws/weaknesses as a Player = not on LeBron

On the flipside:

- All of Jordan's accomplishments = because of his superior / far more talented (than the opponents') teammates

Have I got that right?

Well, what's interesting is that LeBron has played alongside seven (7) different All NBA caliber teammates (while still in their prime), 8 different All Star teammates, and easily 12-14 future/current HOFERS.

Jordan, meanwhile, played alongside one (1) All NBA player (Pippen), one (1) All Star teammate (Pippen), and 6 HOFERS (Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc primarily). He played alongside George Gervin for 18 games and 11 Playoff "minutes" during the Ice Man's final season in 1986, Artis Gilmore for 24 games in 1988 (Gilmore's last year in the league), and 43-year old Robert Parish for 18 "minutes" in the 97 Playoffs (during The Chief's final NBA season).

So tell me again why LeBron has ANY argument for GOAT (over Jordan)... because all I'm reading are his fans making excuse after excuse after excuse for all of the black-eyes, failures and shortcomings on LeBron's resume (despite playing alongside a boatload of All-Star/HOF/All NBA teammates) while at the same time giving Pippen (and a roster of specialists and role players) all the credit for everything Jordan accomplished.

Hate to break it to ya, but that's not a very convincng argument. In fact it's not an argument at all... it's just excuse after excuse after excuse for LeBron, and as noted, GOAT's aren't supposed to have excuses.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Precisely how I feel when a poster makes a blanket statement and fails to back it up.

The Bulls demolished the 5-time Champion Lakers in the 91 Finals... using your rationale those Lakers were better than any team LeBron faced in the Finals (including those Spurs because James lost to them twice).

See how silly that logic sounds.

Sure if the Lakers weren't laughably past their prime as opposed to the Spurs.

 

[MAGA2024]

On the Lakers no. Those early Cavs teams absolutely and he got those tomato cans to the finals. You incorrectly undervalue any run that doesn’t result in a title.

We keep telling you MJ has obviously a legit GOAT case and probably the best one. Most of us have him as GOAT. Where you err is thinking LeBron is significantly lesser. He might be lesser, but it’s very close. Facts.

I have yet to read/hear a compelling argument for LeBron over Jordan "or" close to him (let alone very close) as the GOAT. Again... volume stats (due to playing longer) is the only thing he's got on MJ. On the flipside Jordan is superior in every other facet, as players and from a team success standpoint, which I have laid out extensively throughout this thread.

So where is this "close/very close" argument because all I'm reading from the LeBron camp are excuses.