POLL Top 10 poll: #29 player ever

[LHG]

here is my last attempt to show you guys the problem with OPS+ and ERA+

look at the 2025 season coming up...

We all know that the national league looks like they have the better teams... better players....

not saying the AL or any single team is bad...

now, what if Judge and Ohtani(or insert any player from the AL and insert any player from the NL) have the exact same season...

and lets say we are right that the NL average OBP and Slugging is higher...

then that would mean Judge has the better OPS+ season...


now lets say both leagues have the same average OBP and Slugging(would we account that to better players facing better players??)

that would mean both players would have the same OPS+, but we have already had the opinion that the NL is better... so would their same OPS+ be treated the same??



point is when adjusting to the average, you are not taking into account the strength of the league itself, nor are you taking into account the variance of the numbers( what if it is top heavy)

the above logic is same for ERA+...



sure.... taking context out of stats is fine... but not in an adjusted stat that attempts to compare the context...

again all the + stats are is comparing a player to the average player of that season... that is all...

Do you have a suggestion on a stat that works better than OPS+ or ERA+?

 

[LHG]

i will add... the way that OPS+ is calculated is by adding OBP/lgOBP + SLG/lgSLG(NOT THE FULL FORMULA)

meaning it does not use league OPS...

which also means the player with the higher OPS might not have the higher OPS+ as it all depends on the lg average on both...

sure that sounds fine... but when there was already a mathematical problem with OPS, now you are weighing the numbers differently... and not consistently...

OPS already was a stat that mathematically didnt work but we overlooked it because the results looked nice... why are we doubling down on bad math??

I've never really understood why you think OPS does not work mathematically. Is it because hits are counted in both on base and slugging?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I've never really understood why you think OPS does not work mathematically. Is it because hits are counted in both on base and slugging?

because it doesnt work mathematically.. LOL...

BA is not PA...

but again, the results look nice... so people look past it... this is not a ONLY MILK thing... if you look up OPS and Math, its one of the biggest complaints about it... I am just a numbers person, so it "bothers" me more than most...

But again OPS+ double downs bad math...

 

[Clayton]

The catcher votes need to pick a lane, Bench or Berra, if they want to get on this list in the next 2 spots before it's done...they keep splitting those votes. I just switched to Bench from Berra for that reason, he has more support.

I went with Josh Gibson

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Do you have a suggestion on a stat that works better than OPS+ or ERA+?

WAR is better than both because it includes EVERYTHING....

but analysis 101 is you dont use 1 stat for an analysis... and its up to you how you weigh things...

 

[LHG]

because it doesnt work mathematically.. LOL...

BA is not PA...

but again, the results look nice... so people look past it... this is not a ONLY MILK thing... if you look up OPS and Math, its one of the biggest complaints about it... I am just a numbers person, so it "bothers" me more than most...

But again OPS+ double downs bad math...

BA isn't used in OPS. On base is number of walks and hits divided by plate appearances. Slugging is a weighted number of total bases divided b at bats. Did you mean to say that AB is not the same as PA?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I went with Josh Gibson

personally, i was ok with a n3gro leaguer in my top 10... but anything after i would just not do...

you pick them to honour the league, not because I DONT HAVE A BETTER PERSON TO VOTE FOR.... JMO...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

BA isn't used in OPS. On base is number of walks and hits divided by plate appearances. Slugging is a weighted number of total bases divided b at bats. Did you mean to say that AB is not the same as PA?

meant AB.... PA is not AB

 

[LHG]

WAR is better than both because it includes EVERYTHING....

but analysis 101 is you dont use 1 stat for an analysis... and its up to you how you weigh things...

The in depth pieces cal makes weighs more than one stat. I just throw out the adjusted stats for a starting point. Easier to create quickly than in depth and we can always go deeper on those whom people want to debate.

 

[LHG]

meant AB.... PA is not AB

So, are you suggesting that slugging percentage should be calculated on PAs and not ABs, to make the two stats even in the denominator?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So, are you suggesting that slugging percentage should be calculated on PAs and not ABs, to make the two stats even in the denominator?

no i am suggesting simply you cant add OBP and slugging... it does not mathematically make sense.... not saying anything else...

 

[Clayton]

personally, i was ok with a n3gro leaguer in my top 10... but anything after i would just not do...

you pick them to honour the league, not because I DONT HAVE A BETTER PERSON TO VOTE FOR.... JMO...

I think top 30 is an honor. Maybe if its top 120 or so then we're getting into 'I dont have a better person to vote for' but the top 80 or so are all legends

 

[Wamu]

i dont mind that logic... problem i have though is that we have already had steroid players in... so depending on your view on the difference between the circumstances, a list that includes them already, how can you not include the next...

you have to decide whether Bonds/Clemens is the same as AROD or if it is different... both are valid...

Which **steroid era** players are you referring to?

Everyone knows cheating has been part of the game seemingly forever. But in my opinion the players directly connected to that era ended up cheating all fans. Sure excitement was brought back to the game (McGwire & Sosa as an example) but it turned out to be a complete fraud.

 

[Wamu]

I understand the feelings on ARod but why Clemente and not any of the others in the above list?

As fan of the history of the game he was an all time great who's career was tragically cut short.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The in depth pieces cal makes weighs more than one stat. I just throw out the adjusted stats for a starting point. Easier to create quickly than in depth and we can always go deeper on those whom people want to debate.

I am not telling anyone how to do their analysis... you guys have been pushing OPS+ as the main stat throughout this... not saying you ONLY look at it or make your judgements only from it... but that is the main stat you guys have been using...

that is fine... for you, and whoever else wants to use it...

Cal has done a great job here... organizing everything, and doing the legwork...

also doing a great job giving us a Quick glance of stats...

it would be a much larger and more difficult analysis for him to show more than his buckets and bolded...

but he is still using OPS+ as his main analysis tool...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Which **steroid era** players are you referring to?

Everyone knows cheating has been part of the game seemingly forever. But in my opinion the players directly connected to that era ended up cheating all fans. Sure excitement was brought back to the game (McGwire & Sosa as an example) but it turned out to be a complete fraud.

what i am saying... We have let Clemens and Bonds into the rankings...

its up to you to decide on your views on steroids to answer whether AROD is the same as those 2...

if you think that he is the same, then voting in AROD is more fitting... because our list includes steroid players...

if you dont think they are the same, then not voting in AROD makes more sense...

all in all if you dont want to vote for AROD... dont... not trying to convince you to vote for him.... just pointing out that depending on your views on steroid era, we may have already infected the list....

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think top 30 is an honor. Maybe if its top 120 or so then we're getting into 'I dont have a better person to vote for' but the top 80 or so are all legends

to each their own... i just wont be voting for any non MLB players at this point on... but i guess you are right, we all may have a different baseline for what Honouring means...

 

[Wamu]

what i am saying... We have let Clemens and Bonds into the rankings...

its up to you to decide on your views on steroids to answer whether AROD is the same as those 2...

if you think that he is the same, then voting in AROD is more fitting... because our list includes steroid players...

if you dont think they are the same, then not voting in AROD makes more sense...

all in all if you dont want to vote for AROD... dont... not trying to convince you to vote for him.... just pointing out that depending on your views on steroid era, we may have already infected the list....

I won't vote for any player directly connected to the **steroid era**.

 

[LHG]

no i am suggesting simply you cant add OBP and slugging... it does not mathematically make sense.... not saying anything else...

Because the sum can be greater than 1? It seems to make sense to me but maybe I'm not as advanced in numbers as you.

 

[LHG]

As fan of the history of the game he was an all time great who's career was tragically cut short.

His was a very sad end, especially the fact that he died helping others. A great example.

But he was about to get in his age 38 season had he been alive. What are the chances that his remaining career would have been anything special? The numbers he posted just don't quite compare to some of the other guys that I listed.

For example, compare the counting stats of Clemente to Trout.
Games - Clemente - 2433; Trout - 1518
Plate appearances - Clemente - 10,212; Trout - 6,647
Runs Scored- Clemente - 1416; Trout - 1123
Doubles - Clemente - 440; Trout - 311
Triples - Clemente - 166; Trout - 54
Home Runs - Clemente - 240; Trout - 378
RBIs - Clemente - 1305; Trout - 954
Walks - Clemente - 621; Trout - 980
Strikeouts - Clemente - 1230; Trout - 1485
Batting average - Clemente - .317; Trout - .299
On base percentage - Clemente - .359; Trout - .410
Slugging percentage - Clemente - .374; Trout - .581

About the only thing that Clemente has on Trout is fewer strikeouts and more triples. Trout's per year averages on these almost all are better than Clemente's, and Trout has another 5 seasons to get the same age as Clemente was in his last season. Now I know that we don't use what ifs to measure what active players will look like at the end of their careers so I'm trying to see Trout will or will not do more in future seasons. What I am saying is that Trout is doing better than Clemente did, within the same time frame. I'm not trying to say Clemente doesn't belong in the conversation (I have him just below Yastrzemski), just saying that I think there are others still to be considered before him.