Mid Major schools should have their own division

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

UCF won't have as many players drafted over the four year cycle that includes last year this year and the next two years as Alabama had 1st rounders last year. We will never know what kind of shot they would have with Alabama talent, because they are never going to have Alabama talent, no G5 is. What we do know is that they have managed to get ranked in the top 10 two years in a row and only played 3 P5 opponents. There is not a team in the top 25 that would not be 7-0 with their schedule.

G5's don't have the ability to have rosters anything close to Bama, or a blue blood, or the hot coached P5's. Nothing close to the same zip code.

They don't have a chance because they don't have that talent AND they don't schedule in a way to give them a chance. Period.

It was a hypothetical. Even if you swapped rosters and had the same schedule, Alabama would get in over UCF. This is a legitimate problem. The G5 teams play for absolutely nothing every year. There is no goal outside of winning their conference. I'm not arguing that UCF is as good as Alabama, I'm suggesting that a team going undefeated in two consecutive seasons and winning nothing is dumb. Give them their own playoff.

 

[Rolltide94]

It was a hypothetical. Even if you swapped rosters and had the same schedule, Alabama would get in over UCF. This is a legitimate problem. The G5 teams play for absolutely nothing every year. There is no goal outside of winning their conference. I'm not arguing that UCF is as good as Alabama, I'm suggesting that a team going undefeated in two consecutive seasons and winning nothing is dumb. Give them their own playoff.

So if UCF played our schedule and had out roster, you think they wouldn't make the playoffs...and I thought you thinking that the MAC got 1/4 of the TV money of the B1G was the stupidest thing you could possibly say. If they wanted their own playoff they would already have it. What they want is a chance to get some of that sweet P5 money, if they wanted to win championships, they would all be in the FCS.

 

[7Samurai13]

It was a hypothetical. Even if you swapped rosters and had the same schedule, Alabama would get in over UCF. This is a legitimate problem. The G5 teams play for absolutely nothing every year. There is no goal outside of winning their conference. I'm not arguing that UCF is as good as Alabama, I'm suggesting that a team going undefeated in two consecutive seasons and winning nothing is dumb. Give them their own playoff.

If UCF was trucking teams by 50+ games every game, which they would with that wet paper bag schedule and Bama players, they would get in.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

So if UCF played our schedule and had out roster, you think they wouldn't make the playoffs...and I thought you thinking that the MAC got 1/4 of the TV money of the B1G was the stupidest thing you could possibly say. If they wanted their own playoff they would already have it. What they want is a chance to get some of that sweet P5 money, if they wanted to win championships, they would all be in the FCS.

The MAC does, in fact, get 1/4 the money the B10 does for TV rights every year. This isn't an opinion, this is contractual fact.

The reality is, there's 4 spots for 5 P5 conferences. Under no circumstance does a G5 team get in over that.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

If UCF was trucking teams by 50+ games every game, which they would with that wet paper bag schedule and Bama players, they would get in.

That just isn't true. Because they'd have to unseat someone ranked above them in pre-season. There's 5 P5 conferences and only 4 spots. A G5 team simply is not ever going to jump the champs of the top 4 teams from the top 5 conferences. It just won't ever happen. It's an impossibility. Can you imagine the uproar if a team like Clemson got left out for an undefeated UCF team who's won all it's games by 50 but played no one?

 

[4down20]

The whole concept is kind of, well, dumb. Yeah, I get it -- they will never be as good as Alabama has been these past few years. But that's exactly why they need their own playoff. We don't have FCS Cal Polly playing for the same title as Alabama for the same reason. So why not make all college football programs play in the same division then? Or are only some schools relegated to good, but not good enough to deserve their own title?

It's just kind of stupid. Next year the winning of every G5 conference could go undefeated and would end up outside of the playoff. What, exactly, are they playing for? Their largest accomplishment in any season is winning their conference. How is that not dumb to you?

The schools are able to choose where they want to compete. Like it or not, but every single G5 school decides they want to compete at the higher level knowing full damn well what's what. Every year more and more schools move from FCS to FBS.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

The schools are able to choose where they want to compete. Like it or not, but every single G5 school decides they want to compete at the higher level knowing full damn well what's what. Every year more and more schools move from FCS to FBS.

Sure, but they have much more power to change things if they move collectively rather than individually. There would be a massive cut pay wise for a single school to drop to FCS. As discussed, not so much if they banded together and created their own division.

 

[4down20]

Sure, but they have much more power to change things if they move collectively rather than individually. There would be a massive cut pay wise for a single school to drop to FCS. As discussed, not so much if they banded together and created their own division.

The pay cut comes because they aren't associated with the P5.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

The pay cut comes because they aren't associated with the P5.

The amount of the pay cut is what is in question. They have value collectively, but not individually.

 

[WizardHawk]

It was a hypothetical. Even if you swapped rosters and had the same schedule, Alabama would get in over UCF. This is a legitimate problem. The G5 teams play for absolutely nothing every year. There is no goal outside of winning their conference. I'm not arguing that UCF is as good as Alabama, I'm suggesting that a team going undefeated in two consecutive seasons and winning nothing is dumb. Give them their own playoff.

Stop with the drama. It's not helping your cause.

It would take a perfect season on a strong (strong for G5) schedule AND a year like this where there aren't clear #2's - #4, but it isn't impossible.

BSU finished ranked 4th in 2009 and did so only playing two ranked teams: Oregon and TCU. TCU was still in the mountain west back then. That was the last undefeated season Boise State had. The next 3 seasons they lost to a ranked team. 2010 and 2011 they had two ranked teams on their schedule and lost to one of them.

We think of BSU as being a powerhouse during that time and many of their fans still whine over the lack of respect, but the bottom line is they won on the backs of weak schedules and when they dipped their toes in the sand of playing better teams, they didn't get the job done.

BTW, who were the top 5 AP ranked teams going into the bowl season that year?
#1 Bama
#2 Texas
#3 Cincinnati
#4 TCU

TCU had defeated 2 ranked teams that season (both were mid majors) and Cincinnati had defeated 3 (there were big east then)

Before you try saying that today that wouldn't happen because of some force keeping them down, I'd point out that in the early-mid 2k's there were several very strong G5's teams, not just Boise State. TCU, BYU, and Utah were upsetting teams and getting ranked.

Now? BSU is down after Petersen left and each year there is one kind of strong-ish G5?

THIS would very much be a year that a strong resume G5 could get in. There isn't one. UCF might not play a single ranked team this year given that South Florida is currently ranked, but still has road games at Houston, Temple, and Cincinnati. Not much chance they run that slate clean. UCF's best scheduled non conference game? Well, they didn't have one. All of them were garbage and one got cancelled against a team that has one win this season. It's a totally garbage schedule that deserves NOTHING.

Just having ONE ranked team on it with a win and they are 1000% in the top 4 at the end of the year given this struggle and what past rankings shows us. They failed to make a schedule worthy. Period. Stop, Drop the mic. End of topic.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

Stop with the drama. It's not helping your cause.

It would take a perfect season on a strong (strong for G5) schedule AND a year like this where there aren't clear #2's - #4, but it isn't impossible.

BSU finished ranked 4th in 2009 and did so only playing two ranked teams: Oregon and TCU. TCU was still in the mountain west back then. That was the last undefeated season Boise State had. The next 3 seasons they lost to a ranked team. 2010 and 2011 they had two ranked teams on their schedule and lost to one of them.

We think of BSU as being a powerhouse during that time and many of their fans still whine over the lack of respect, but the bottom line is they won on the backs of weak schedules and when they dipped their toes in the sand of playing better teams, they didn't get the job done.

BTW, who were the top 5 AP ranked teams going into the bowl season that year?
#1 Bama
#2 Texas
#3 Cincinnati
#4 TCU

TCU had defeated 2 ranked teams that season (both were mid majors) and Cincinnati had defeated 3 (there were big east then)

Before you try saying that today that wouldn't happen because of some force keeping them down, I'd point out that in the early-mid 2k's there were several very strong G5's teams, not just Boise State. TCU, BYU, and Utah were upsetting teams and getting ranked.

Now? BSU is down after Petersen left and each year there is one kind of strong-ish G5?

THIS would very much be a year that a strong resume G5 could get in. There isn't one. UCF might not play a single ranked team this year given that South Florida is currently ranked, but still has road games at Houston, Temple, and Cincinnati. Not much chance they run that slate clean. UCF's best scheduled non conference game? Well, they didn't have one. All of them were garbage and one got cancelled against a team that has one win this season. It's a totally garbage schedule that deserves NOTHING.

Just having ONE ranked team on it with a win and they are 1000% in the top 4 at the end of the year given this struggle and what past rankings shows us. They failed to make a schedule worthy. Period. Stop, Drop the mic. End of topic.

You're using BCS rankings. The human system we have now would simply not allow a G5 team into the playoff. It just won't happen. The computers were more unbias in that way in 2009, and more importantly #4 didn't matter; only the top 2 did. So no, it won't happen in the current system; just like no G5 team in 2009 could have made the top 2. The bubble in either case top 2 or top 4 is unattainable for them. They'll always be ranked right outside. That TCU team would have finished 5th or 6th in the modern ranking system.

I'm not being dramatic, just stating the case that I would enjoy P5 being separated from the G5. You could even make a more interesting case that P5 teams should only be allowed to schedule P5 teams.

I don't accept that we should have a less fun product, like you're suggesting, just for the sake of not changing anything. You have yet to produce a valid argument for keeping them in the same division IMO.

 

[WizardHawk]

You're using BCS rankings. The human system we have now would simply not allow a G5 team into the playoff. It just won't happen. The computers were more unbias in that way in 2009, and more importantly #4 didn't matter; only the top 2 did. So no, it won't happen in the current system; just like no G5 team in 2009 could have made the top 2. The bubble in either case top 2 or top 4 is unattainable for them. They'll always be ranked right outside. That TCU team would have finished 5th or 6th in the modern ranking system.

I'm not being dramatic, just stating the case that I would enjoy P5 being separated from the G5. You could even make a more interesting case that P5 teams should only be allowed to schedule P5 teams.

I don't accept that we should have a less fun product, like you're suggesting, just for the sake of not changing anything. You have yet to produce a valid argument for keeping them in the same division IMO.

So we have your assertion as some sort of proof/fact that the CFP committee will always 100% do everything in their power to prevent a G5 from reaching the top 4, but you say we haven't presented any facts?

The FACT that I presented was during a time when there were several high performing mid majors they were ranked accordingly. That isn't speculation, that is fact. Period. It wasn't computer models, we are talking about actual rankings by humans.

The second fact I presented is that we currently do not have that same body of high performing teams at that level. Several of those moved up to the P5 ranks (Utah and TCU), Boise State isn't the same after Petersen left, and a couple of others that had made some waves for a minute haven't made it over that hump. UCF is a talented team on a good streak, but haven't played a non conf schedule with ranked teams on it. That's THEIR FAULT 10000%. The attempt to use beating Auburn in a bowl game last year as proof they belonged is just stupid. Play Auburn (or anyone else with a pulse) during the regular season.

G5's MUST thread the needle and win out every game. They MUST do so with at least one ranked P5 or at least a top 10ish G5 and/or maybe 3 ranked G5's. This approximates at least a bad SoS P5 schedule and puts them on similar ground.

We do not have anyone currently that fits that bill. Doing so gives one of them a chance.

As for making a case for not splitting them off, you do understand this thread was created by a poster that ripped off a post of mine calling for that very thing right? I am for them going their own way, but not because of your over the top bullshit. It makes sense for several reasons. I've simply said it 100% won't happen because of money. There's a differenece.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

So we have your assertion as some sort of proof/fact that the CFP committee will always 100% do everything in their power to prevent a G5 from reaching the top 4, but you say we haven't presented any facts?

The FACT that I presented was during a time when there were several high performing mid majors they were ranked accordingly. That isn't speculation, that is fact. Period. It wasn't computer models, we are talking about actual rankings by humans.

The second fact I presented is that we currently do not have that same body of high performing teams at that level. Several of those moved up to the P5 ranks (Utah and TCU), Boise State isn't the same after Petersen left, and a couple of others that had made some waves for a minute haven't made it over that hump. UCF is a talented team on a good streak, but haven't played a non conf schedule with ranked teams on it. That's THEIR FAULT 10000%. The attempt to use beating Auburn in a bowl game last year as proof they belonged is just stupid. Play Auburn (or anyone else with a pulse) during the regular season.

G5's MUST thread the needle and win out every game. They MUST do so with at least one ranked P5 or at least a top 10ish G5 and/or maybe 3 ranked G5's. This approximates at least a bad SoS P5 schedule and puts them on similar ground.

We do not have anyone currently that fits that bill. Doing so gives one of them a chance.

As for making a case for not splitting them off, you do understand this thread was created by a poster that ripped off a post of mine calling for that very thing right? I am for them going their own way, but not because of your over the top bullshit. It makes sense for several reasons. I've simply said it 100% won't happen because of money. There's a differenece.

I can't prove a negative. I can't prove how the future will be. All I can prove is what has happened; which illustrates my point, a G5 team will never make it into a playoff in the current format just like they didn't in the previous format. They had a better shot when there was no playoff and championships were just arbitrarily awarded by the AP and coaches. Show me a G5 that qualified for the playoff, either BCS or current. They don't exist, despite multiple opportunities for it to happen with legitimately good teams.

 

[WizardHawk]

I can't prove a negative. I can't prove how the future will be. All I can prove is what has happened; which illustrates my point, a G5 team will never make it into a playoff in the current format just like they didn't in the previous format. They had a better shot when there was no playoff and championships were just arbitrarily awarded by the AP and coaches. Show me a G5 that qualified for the playoff, either BCS or current. They don't exist, despite multiple opportunities for it to happen with legitimately good teams.

Wow, bad logic is bad.

They were better under the old system when they either had to reach the #1 ranking (pre BCS) or reach the top 2 (BCS) vs now when they have to reach the top 4.


Did this actually sound good in your own head before typing it?

Your 'proof' is it hasn't happened so it never will. That's your entire argument. And I've already given you an example of periods of time when non power conference teams have been high enough ranked to qualify under our current system today. Your assertion is they are only not ranked that high now because they are being artificially kept down. So the current AP and Coaches polls are in on this as well as the CFP committee. Those same AP/Coaches polls were more willing to rank them higher before they all got together to keep G5's down.

How about giving us an example of a team that otherwise would have been ranked top 5ish pre CFP that hasn't been so we can all laugh at you more. I gave you specific examples of high ranked non P5's and listed the number of ranked teams they played against. Now it's time for you to back up your words. I'll save you the trouble, you aren't going to find it. This conspiracy is all in your head.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

Wow, bad logic is bad.

They were better under the old system when they either had to reach the #1 ranking (pre BCS) or reach the top 2 (BCS) vs now when they have to reach the top 4.


Did this actually sound good in your own head before typing it?

Your 'proof' is it hasn't happened so it never will. That's your entire argument. And I've already given you an example of periods of time when non power conference teams have been high enough ranked to qualify under our current system today. Your assertion is they are only not ranked that high now because they are being artificially kept down. So the current AP and Coaches polls are in on this as well as the CFP committee. Those same AP/Coaches polls were more willing to rank them higher before they all got together to keep G5's down.

How about giving us an example of a team that otherwise would have been ranked top 5ish pre CFP that hasn't been so we can all laugh at you more. I gave you specific examples of high ranked non P5's and listed the number of ranked teams they played against. Now it's time for you to back up your words. I'll save you the trouble, you aren't going to find it. This conspiracy is all in your head.

Yes, because theoretically there was two championships that could be handed out (see Nebraska/Mich 97).

My proof is that it hasn't happened, and the committee has made every attempt to make sure it doesn't happen. Which is why teams like UCF stay stagnant in the polls and get jumped by P5 teams. UCF has moved a grand total of 9 spots since the season started and has been deadlocked at 10 for 3 weeks. It happens EVERY time there's a team like UCF, no matter the polling system. They rank them high enough to get into a good bowl game, not high enough to matter. UCF decimated the SEC champs, and couldn't even crack the top 5.

So, yeah, that's pretty compelling evidence. That same team has now won 20 straight games and can't even crack the top 9. I'm not sure what other evidence you want. That is absolutely the best possible scenario for a G5 team to make the top 4 - an undefeated prior season, returning tons of talent and winning out. And still, that isn't enough to jolt them into the big leagues. So it won't happen, ever, in our current system. This shouldn't even be a debate. There will always be P5 teams in the 5 conferences + ND that fill up those 4 spots before one of these teams is let in.

 

[WizardHawk]

Yes, because theoretically there was two championships that could be handed out (see Nebraska/Mich 97).

My proof is that it hasn't happened, and the committee has made every attempt to make sure it doesn't happen. Which is why teams like UCF stay stagnant in the polls and get jumped by P5 teams. UCF has moved a grand total of 9 spots since the season started and has been deadlocked at 10 for 3 weeks. It happens EVERY time there's a team like UCF, no matter the polling system. They rank them high enough to get into a good bowl game, not high enough to matter. UCF decimated the SEC champs, and couldn't even crack the top 5.

So, yeah, that's pretty compelling evidence. That same team has now won 20 straight games and can't even crack the top 9. I'm not sure what other evidence you want. That is absolutely the best possible scenario for a G5 team to make the top 4 - an undefeated prior season, returning tons of talent and winning out. And still, that isn't enough to jolt them into the big leagues. So it won't happen, ever, in our current system. This shouldn't even be a debate. There will always be P5 teams in the 5 conferences + ND that fill up those 4 spots before one of these teams is let in.

So again, your 'facts' are nothing more than your feelings without any substantiation or data to back it up. Got it.

Where is your 'fact' that the committee has "made every attempt to make sure it doesn't happen"? How about one valid example? One.

UCF is deadlocked at 10, so that's proof the committee (which hasn't yet put a list out) is somehow telling the AP voters how to vote? Do you not understand how unbiased people will look at that assertion as being functionally retarded? Those same AP voters had no problems ranking mid majors high when TCU, Utah, BSU, and BYU were playing well AND PLAYING RANKED TEAMS. So to you the only change now is some built in intentional conspiracy to keep them out, not that we currently do not have high functioning G5's that have a resume worth ranking.

Seriously. I'm not joking. Go look at the last season and a half and look at who UCF has played. I'll wait right here for that. Show us what teams they played that had that killer resume we have seen from high ranked G5's all throughout going back to when a mid major actually was crowned national champions (BYU '84).

You just are factually wrong.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

So again, your 'facts' are nothing more than your feelings without any substantiation or data to back it up. Got it.

Where is your 'fact' that the committee has "made every attempt to make sure it doesn't happen"? How about one valid example? One.

UCF is deadlocked at 10, so that's proof the committee (which hasn't yet put a list out) is somehow telling the AP voters how to vote? Do you not understand how unbiased people will look at that assertion as being functionally retarded? Those same AP voters had no problems ranking mid majors high when TCU, Utah, BSU, and BYU were playing well AND PLAYING RANKED TEAMS. So to you the only change now is some built in intentional conspiracy to keep them out, not that we currently do not have high functioning G5's that have a resume worth ranking.

Seriously. I'm not joking. Go look at the last season and a half and look at who UCF has played. I'll wait right here for that. Show us what teams they played that had that killer resume we have seen from high ranked G5's all throughout going back to when a mid major actually was crowned national champions (BYU '84).

You just are factually wrong.

My facts are what has happened. Period. UCF will never, and can never, have a better schedule. Which will always be the excuse to keep them out, until (like Boise beating OU) they beat the SEC champs in a bowl game. It's a cycle and it will continue to happen, excuses will continue to be made why we should keep them around without their own title, until the end of time or until they have their own.

 

[4down20]

I can't prove a negative.

But you can assert it as fact?

 

[WizardHawk]

My facts are what has happened. Period.

Because you said so? Where is the proof that the committee is intentionally preventing G5's from reaching the top 4? Lack of 'proof' removes that as a fact. Things aren't facts simply because you make a declaration as such.

The facts are clear, and with lots of examples, that non P5 teams that beat ranked teams and run the table are rewarded. It has happened many many times.

It is also a fact that we do not currently have a high functioning non P5 team undefeated with wins against a ranked team. That is an absolute fact.

So when given examples of teams being rewarded for doing it in the past, and not having any to use as an example now, you ignore all of that for a made up conspiracy theory and declare it as fact.

 

[4down20]

My facts are what has happened. Period. UCF will never, and can never, have a better schedule. Which will always be the excuse to keep them out, until (like Boise beating OU) they beat the SEC champs in a bowl game. It's a cycle and it will continue to happen, excuses will continue to be made why we should keep them around without their own title, until the end of time or until they have their own.

Maybe if they had Auburn in the regular season instead of the bowl season it would have made a difference.