• Have something to say? Register Now! and be posting in minutes!

Why Russell Wilson isn't elite yet - ESPN Insider

iowajerms

Well-Known Member
20,650
2,780
293
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Location
Iowa, US
Hoopla Cash
$ 29,091.39
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Why Russell Wilson isn't an elite QB - NFL
By KC Joyner

Realistically, the Seattle Seahawks have no choice other than to make Russell Wilson one of the highest-paid quarterbacks in the NFL with his upcoming contract extension. He has led the team to consecutive Super Bowl berths, including one win, and the cost of losing him in free agency and having to find a replacement would be far too great. You simply can't contend for championships in the NFL without an above-average quarterback, no matter how good the rest of a team's roster is. And Seattle's is good, particularly on defense -- they've led the NFL in total defense in each of the past two seasons.

The reality is just because he's about to be paid like an elite quarterback doesn't mean Wilson is one. In fact, there are several pieces of evidence that show he falls far short of that level. Let's take a look.

1. His Total QBR is comparable to that of a mid-level QB.

ESPN's Total QBR is a metric that takes rushing play production into account and is thus normally considered to be more favorable for mobile quarterbacks than passer rating, yet Wilson hasn't posted dominant numbers here. He ranked 13th in this category last season (62.4) and placed 13th here in 2013 (58.9).

2. When you isolate passing plays, it looks gets even worse.

Wilson's metrics take a hit when the Total QBR measurement is limited to passing plays, as he ranked 23rd in this area last season (47.5). To be fair, Wilson's overall rank in passing play Total QBR over the past three years is 11th (57.7), but the drop-off in 2014 indicated a downward trend. That could be a sign that the league is getting used to defending Wilson's unique skill set -- particularly his improvisational and running abilities. If there isn't a clear uptick this season with new weapons around, it'll be a big concern.

3. He has a low red-zone Total QBR.

Wilson's Total QBR plummeted last year when the Seahawks reached the red zone (defined as plays starting from inside the opposing team's 20-yard line). He ranked 23rd in overall red-zone Total QBR last year (44.6) and ranked 25th on red-zone pass plays (30.9). The addition of tight end Jimmy Graham might help him improve in this area, as the Seahawks lacked a top pass-catching weapon with size last season, but these are concerning numbers nonetheless.

4. The impact of his rushing ability may be overrated.

Arguably Wilson's greatest strength as a quarterback, as alluded to earlier, is his ability to extend plays with his athleticism and gain yards on the ground. There's no question that he is one of the best QBs in the league in this area, if not the best. That is backed up by his ranking No. 1 in the league over the past three seasons in expected points added (EPA is explained here) on rushing attempts, with 55.3 EPA.

But this same metric can show us the relatively low impact of running ability from quarterbacks when compared to passing ability. Wilson's 55.3 rushing total is only 45 points higher than the league average in that category (8.3). Now contrast that against Wilson's 180.2 passing EPA. That total is 12.8 points higher than the league average (167.4), but it only ranks 12th. The 11 quarterbacks in front of him had an average of 268.5 points, or over 100 points higher than the league average.

To put it another way, Wilson's rushing EPA by itself would not make up for his EPA passing deficit versus an average top-10 passer. What this shows is the limited value of rushing plays for quarterbacks. These snaps are valuable, but they pale in comparison to passing play value. For Wilson to truly be considered an elite quarterback, his passing performance will need to improve.

5. He does a terrible job of avoiding sacks.

It would seem that Wilson's mobility would also serve him well when it comes to keeping defenses from generating sacks, but that isn't the case. Over the past three seasons, Wilson's 7.8 percent sacks per dropback rate (measuring sacks on pass dropbacks, sans spike plays) ranked tied for 27th. He had the highest percentage of sacks on plays in the pocket (8.4 percent) and was tied for 18th on sack percentage on out-of-pocket plays (9.0 percent), so there wasn't an area where his mobility proved to be very helpful in avoiding sacks.

This had a huge sack EPA impact, as Wilson's minus-65.9 total here over the past three seasons ranked next-to-last. Another way to view this is to note that Wilson's sack EPA more than offsets his positive rushing EPA, so the sum total of those two elements is actually negative from an EPA perspective.

Now, it's fair to point out that the offensive line has not been a strength of Seattle's the past few seasons; with improved pass protection, Wilson's sack numbers could get better. But what these numbers tell us is that Wilson's greatest strength -- his mobility and improvisation skills -- can also translate to some negative plays that offset the impact of his positive ones.

Bottom line

Perception of Wilson among fans and teams around the league might be a lot different had the Seahawks not pulled off an improbable comeback win over the Packers in last season's NFC Championship game. Wilson had an abysmal showing through the end of regulation of that contest by going 11-for-26 for 129 yards, zero touchdowns, four interceptions and four sacks. The Seattle offense put the defense in bad situations over and over.

As bad as that beginning was, Wilson also brought the team back for a miraculous win (with a bit of help from Marshawn Lynch and some highly questionable play calling by Packers head coach Mike McCarthy) that perhaps most quarterbacks wouldn't have been capable of achieving.

The latter talent is one worthy of an elite contract, but the issues brought on by the former stat line are indicative of some general issues with Wilson's game. He is a good NFL quarterback, and no one can fault the Seahawks for paying him like one of the game's best quarterbacks given they don't really have any other choice. But just because he's going to get paid like one doesn't mean he's an elite QB.
 

Southieinnc

Do Your Job!
26,850
11,425
1,033
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Location
Out of the desert!
Hoopla Cash
$ 9,623.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
If QBR is the basis of this 4 letter report, I'm not going to read it.
As far as elite, that is totally subjective. Nobody can be blamed for an educated opinion......
 

RobBase

★★★★★
36,120
8,427
533
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Location
USA
Hoopla Cash
$ 200.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Is he elite? Purely subjective.

Did he rip the Packers hearts out and eat them in front of their faces? Yes.

Has he won his divison title? Yes.

Has he been to a SB? Yes.

Has he won a SB? Yes.

A lot more than my teams QB can say.
 

NWPATSFAN

Well-Known Member
32,533
6,413
533
Joined
Nov 19, 2014
Hoopla Cash
$ 236.27
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
:kermit:I'm sipping tea and taking shelter waiting on the Hawk possters.
 

cdumler7

Well-Known Member
26,304
4,319
293
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 9,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
:kermit:I'm sipping tea and taking shelter waiting on the Hawk possters.

I think they understand plenty that there are just some things that numbers cannot show. A great example that I was listening to today was on the Bronco radio comparing Manning to Elway at the end of their careers and they said numbers wise Manning is by far the better QB of the two but what Elway had much more of was heart and that showed up that when the team needed a play he was still the guy who could get it done and I see that in Wilson in yes he won't put up the best numbers all the time but man when you need that huge play to close out a big game not sure there is another QB in the league you want with the ball in his hands.
 

Southieinnc

Do Your Job!
26,850
11,425
1,033
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Location
Out of the desert!
Hoopla Cash
$ 9,623.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
We could talk about "elite" for 2 more months might have to.
I don't know if Wilson is "elite" yet but what other way would you want a QB to start a career????
What has Wilson not done?
 

Clayton

Well-Known Member
36,866
10,323
1,033
Joined
May 17, 2012
Hoopla Cash
$ 9,000.59
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Its official - Seahawks should let him walk. Clearly this guy isnt worth paying. They should give Clipboard Jesus another try
 

sonnyblack65

Well-Known Member
25,678
9,766
533
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 40,000.79
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Did you forget about Andrew Luck? No way I take Wilson over Luck.

No I didnt forget about Luck. I have seen the 4 games Luck played against the Pats and the 2 games Wilson has played vs Pats. Luck has all the upside, size, arm strength, wheels etc but needs to keep t/o's down. I thought Luck was the best QB coming out of college in a long time, but people forget that Wilson has like 20 more Tds in his college career so he can chuck it when needed. He does what he needs to win games, and when you have Marshawn Lynch, run alot
 

NWPATSFAN

Well-Known Member
32,533
6,413
533
Joined
Nov 19, 2014
Hoopla Cash
$ 236.27
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I had posted a while back with regard to this. Living in the NW I get to see RW play weekly. He has certainley earned respect. I'm also a firm believer that every QB is a system QB. Whether that means a pocket passer, west coast style... Otherwise a team would be stupid to implement that type of offense in their system. So I hate when fans throw out he's just a system QB.

Anyway back to my point. I had mentioned that I would like to see RW play in a differnet style offense IOT accurately judge his ability. He's doing great in the system he plays with. But what happens if they lose that running game? Last year Seattle was near the top with RW getting sacked 40 times. Combine that with his mediocre passing stats (not putting him down, somoene just published his numbers in another thread) I think it would be exciting to see how he did? Kind of contradictory unless you subtract that running game. I give that running game a lot of credit for the success of that offense. Maybe I'm wrong but we should find out in the next year or two.
 

jakedog56

Well-Known Member
2,670
743
113
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Fair enough points in the article. Does not tell the full story though.

Total QBR is a sham though. Need a more solid base than that for the analysis but ESPN keeps pushing it down our throats as verbatim because they made that crap up. Glad I have boycotted their site ever since their pathetically horrible redesign.
 

Stomp

Lions Homer
6,090
1,827
173
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Location
Alaska
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
Now, it's fair to point out that the offensive line has not been a strength of Seattle's the past few seasons; with improved pass protection,

I think his o-line gets a bad rap they have the longest average pocket time of any o-line over the last 3 years per PFF. (average time to throw and average time in the pocket)
 

BoiseMike19

10 inch Member
17,965
5,775
533
Joined
May 2, 2013
Location
Boise, ID
Hoopla Cash
$ 450.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
The article was fair. I like Wilson, but if it was my money being spent, no way he is the richest QB 3 years in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GNG

Cave_Johnson

R.I.P. Bob Saget
9,525
3,817
293
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 2,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
I think his o-line gets a bad rap they have the longest average pocket time of any o-line over the last 3 years per PFF. (average time to throw and average time in the pocket)

The average time to throw stat on PFF is defined as "the time from when the ball is snapped to the point where the quarterback has either thrown a pass or can no longer throw a pass (has been sacked or has scrambled past the line of scrimmage)." So essentially it takes into account scrambling which is why all the guys at the top of the list are scrambling QBs like Wilson, Cam Newton, RG3, Luck etc. That's not really saying anything about the offensive line. Wilson leads in time to sack for similar reasons.

The time to throw stat on PFF mentions that a high time to throw doesn't mean their O-lines are necessarily giving them more time.

QBs in Focus: Time to Throw | ProFootballFocus.com

"On the other hand, some of the younger, more mobile quarterbacks in the league such as Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, and even Andrew Luck have much higher times to throw, and it’s not because they’re getting more time from their line, but moreso because they’re either looking to extend plays with their legs, trying to take more downfield shots, or some combination of both."

Seattle's offensive line ranks about where you would expect any Tom Cable offensive line to rank. Top third in run blocking, bottom third in pass protection, and almost dead last in penalties. It's been that way when he was in Atlanta and Oakland as well.
 

Stomp

Lions Homer
6,090
1,827
173
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Location
Alaska
Hoopla Cash
$ 1,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
The average time to throw stat on PFF is defined as "the time from when the ball is snapped to the point where the quarterback has either thrown a pass or can no longer throw a pass (has been sacked or has scrambled past the line of scrimmage)." So essentially it takes into account scrambling which is why all the guys at the top of the list are scrambling QBs like Wilson, Cam Newton, RG3, Luck etc. That's not really saying anything about the offensive line. Wilson leads in time to sack for similar reasons.

The time to throw stat on PFF mentions that high time to throw doesn't mean their O-lines are necessarily giving them more time.

All true but he also has the longest average time in the pocket
 

RegentDenali

LOL at 42-13, 29-3, 19-3
Moderator
18,567
5,718
533
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Location
Seattle, WA
Hoopla Cash
$ 11,798.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
1c526e6ce1f962f24c0ea6294acc4660.jpg


seaaa.0.gif


And in all seriousness, I don't care who it is. In the NFL, you don't start throwing the term "elite" around for any player, especially QBs, whose only been in the league 3 years. I save that term for those who consistently maintain a top10 at your position ranking over the course of 5+ years.

RW has accomplished more than than most NFL QBs have in their first 3 years in the league, but he's also had a great roster and coaching crew around him to help with all that. He's one of those guys who was in the right place, at the right time, and took full advantage of it, while also being able to back it up with talent and work ethic. He ended being a disgustingly perfect fit for the Seahawks and I'm damn glad we got him here in Seattle. I'm sure a deal will eventually be worked out to keep him hear for more years to come.

Go Hawks!
 

Cave_Johnson

R.I.P. Bob Saget
9,525
3,817
293
Joined
Apr 28, 2013
Hoopla Cash
$ 2,000.00
Fav. Team #1
Fav. Team #2
Fav. Team #3
All true but he also has the longest average time in the pocket

I could only find that stat for 2012 on PFF and it only went to the top 10.

sigttt1.png



If you have a link for that particular stat over the course of the last 3 years I would be interested to see how everybody stacks up.
 
Top