Trading DOWN

[Screamin12th]

Screamin'...

is there another meaning of 'throwing darts,' I'm not aware of?

and a b.s. emoji.

Sleep is going to elude me tonight!

it was a statement about throwing a bunch of shit into a fan and hoping some of it stick, I said like throwing darts. when you looked at the players available when the Hawks picked it felt like they were just throwing darts and had no plan going in. Now we know that isn't the case but that still doesn't explain why they were leaving 1st and 2nd round graded players at need positions on the board and drafting 4th or 5th and some times 6th round graded players in the 3rd.

Weak draft for Oline i know this and said as much, matter of fact i said that maybe MAYBE 2 Olineman in this draft class would be drafted in the first round in other drafts and i was laughed at by that comment well slap my silly i was right. How many Olineman were drafted in the first round? This team needed a play maker at OLB not a fill in but a starter and play maker, they had their chance to get such a player TWICE and thumbed their noses at it.

They needed to find a CB that had a chance to beat out Shead who might not be ready week one so they needed someone that could start in a pinch they ignored that. Shead is not a great corner and i think we can all agree on that. Finding someone to replace him would have been nice and would have instantly made the secondary better. The CB they picked is more of the same in my eyes and might have a chance to beat out Shead but he is more like a clone of Shead. King would have been a upgrade and in my eyes has a higher ceiling than Shead who i feel we have seen the best we are going to see from him. Sherman being on the trading block also means they very well could be looking for TWO CB that can start and play in the NFL SOON ( maybe not this year but next year). They didn't seem to care.

Ok the Oline. Weak class we all know this some better than others so you might have to dig. They grabbed a guy who's best position is Center. Why? Our best Olineman on the team right now ( Sorry Ifedi ) plays CENTER! Ok Pocic played all over the line, Guard and even a little tackle but lets not kid ourselves he was BAD as a tackle not just bad but Horrible. Ok so lets look at what they picked up in FA a guard another guard oh a guard. WTF! Lamp was there for them to pick up and i bet he becomes the best Olineman in this draft because again he in my eyes again has the highest ceiling. They could have plugged him in at RG and slid Ifedi out to tackle and if Ifedi fails at tackle they could have slid Lamp out there. I can not see Pocic at tackle ...can you REALLY see that?

Yes there was some picks i liked, The Hawks First pick wasn't a bad one just not as much of a need in my eyes because we had DT's injured last year that will be back or 100% this season that are young. Reed was dinged up last season ( high ankle sprain or was that Jefferson? ) and he will improve Quinton Jefferson will improve and is a young guy. They talk about getting pressure from inside and yet draft a 1.5 sack guy..... Both WR i totally understand because there is a need there and they addressed it with a couple guys that could blossom. both are bigger WR 220+ 6foot + and both are very raw but could develop into #3 or 4 guys. Darboh in college was this guy that just improved every year. They thought someone else was going to over take him but he just took on that challenge and won, love that style of personality. Guy has desire and want to in him ala Baldwin.

Not Drafting a OLB in my eyes was a mistake, they could have instantly made the defense better just with that move alone. This hurts more knowing there was players for the taking that would have been starters at OLB ( ok should never say would but ill say should ).

Now i do not know the team inside and out like Carrol and JS do, i only know what i see in games and in film just like the rest of you. But i think we all know where this team is weak/thin and i just feel like they could have did so much more to help bolster those "THIN" area's than they did. And lets not fool our selves, these two have reached a lot in the 3rd through 5th rounds and have hit on some but missed on most.

At least they didn't draft a DT to play Oline this season. After Day 2 i said i give them a D-, i now say it's a D. Also sucks to see the Hawks in many places as the biggest losers of the draft after what the Bears pulled you would think they would be the lock for that honor. This just goes to show that being able to see through Seahawk colored glasses is not a strong point on this board.

the BS emoji was because of this comment by you "We've gotta' ship these two outta' town pronto. Maybe Mike Shanahan is available." as a total over reaction post to my opinion. I still have faith in Pete and JS but having faith and being blind are two VERY different things. I will not BLINDLY follow and agree i will use my own judgement like we all should do but many of you seem to think this FO can do no wrong. Supporting someone doesn't mean you have to blindly follow and agree with them 100% of the time.

 

[chf]

it was a statement about throwing a bunch of shit into a fan and hoping some of it stick, I said like throwing darts. when you looked at the players available when the Hawks picked it felt like they were just throwing darts and had no plan going in. Now we know that isn't the case but that still doesn't explain why they were leaving 1st and 2nd round graded players at need positions on the board and drafting 4th or 5th and some times 6th round graded players in the 3rd.

Weak draft for Oline i know this and said as much, matter of fact i said that maybe MAYBE 2 Olineman in this draft class would be drafted in the first round in other drafts and i was laughed at by that comment well slap my silly i was right. How many Olineman were drafted in the first round? This team needed a play maker at OLB not a fill in but a starter and play maker, they had their chance to get such a player TWICE and thumbed their noses at it.

They needed to find a CB that had a chance to beat out Shead who might not be ready week one so they needed someone that could start in a pinch they ignored that. Shead is not a great corner and i think we can all agree on that. Finding someone to replace him would have been nice and would have instantly made the secondary better. The CB they picked is more of the same in my eyes and might have a chance to beat out Shead but he is more like a clone of Shead. King would have been a upgrade and in my eyes has a higher ceiling than Shead who i feel we have seen the best we are going to see from him. Sherman being on the trading block also means they very well could be looking for TWO CB that can start and play in the NFL SOON ( maybe not this year but next year). They didn't seem to care.

Ok the Oline. Weak class we all know this some better than others so you might have to dig. They grabbed a guy who's best position is Center. Why? Our best Olineman on the team right now ( Sorry Ifedi ) plays CENTER! Ok Pocic played all over the line, Guard and even a little tackle but lets not kid ourselves he was BAD as a tackle not just bad but Horrible. Ok so lets look at what they picked up in FA a guard another guard oh a guard. WTF! Lamp was there for them to pick up and i bet he becomes the best Olineman in this draft because again he in my eyes again has the highest ceiling. They could have plugged him in at RG and slid Ifedi out to tackle and if Ifedi fails at tackle they could have slid Lamp out there. I can not see Pocic at tackle ...can you REALLY see that?

Yes there was some picks i liked, The Hawks First pick wasn't a bad one just not as much of a need in my eyes because we had DT's injured last year that will be back or 100% this season that are young. Reed was dinged up last season ( high ankle sprain or was that Jefferson? ) and he will improve Quinton Jefferson will improve and is a young guy. They talk about getting pressure from inside and yet draft a 1.5 sack guy..... Both WR i totally understand because there is a need there and they addressed it with a couple guys that could blossom. both are bigger WR 220+ 6foot + and both are very raw but could develop into #3 or 4 guys. Darboh in college was this guy that just improved every year. They thought someone else was going to over take him but he just took on that challenge and won, love that style of personality. Guy has desire and want to in him ala Baldwin.

Not Drafting a OLB in my eyes was a mistake, they could have instantly made the defense better just with that move alone. This hurts more knowing there was players for the taking that would have been starters at OLB ( ok should never say would but ill say should ).

Now i do not know the team inside and out like Carrol and JS do, i only know what i see in games and in film just like the rest of you. But i think we all know where this team is weak/thin and i just feel like they could have did so much more to help bolster those "THIN" area's than they did. And lets not fool our selves, these two have reached a lot in the 3rd through 5th rounds and have hit on some but missed on most.

At least they didn't draft a DT to play Oline this season. After Day 2 i said i give them a D-, i now say it's a D. Also sucks to see the Hawks in many places as the biggest losers of the draft after what the Bears pulled you would think they would be the lock for that honor. This just goes to show that being able to see through Seahawk colored glasses is not a strong point on this board.

the BS emoji was because of this comment by you "We've gotta' ship these two outta' town pronto. Maybe Mike Shanahan is available." as a total over reaction post to my opinion. I still have faith in Pete and JS but having faith and being blind are two VERY different things. I will not BLINDLY follow and agree i will use my own judgement like we all should do but many of you seem to think this FO can do no wrong. Supporting someone doesn't mean you have to blindly follow and agree with them 100% of the time.

So to sum up, yes, 'throwing darts' has a different meaning in your world.

'In my eyes,' that covers a shit ton of ground. See, I just admit I don't know fuck all about who they should draft, because I don't.

It's kinda' fun that way, i get to buckle up and go for a ride as a R. Wilson, midget QB gets drafted, and I get to go in with a blank slate watching him in pre-season games, and find out that he's special without a lot of preconceptions.

All this above boils down at the end of the day to this. Do you have reason to trust P + J?

Have they earned some rope?

I call shenanigans on some of your Holiday Inn Express wisdom though. This Central Florida kid, how many games of HIS have you been able to watch?

I've read more than a few people on here say he's slow, when apparently he has 4.4 speed.

Guys like that, I call bullshit on anyone saying they have any insight, unless they happen to be fans of that specific college team. Take Lamp also. You say 'in your eyes, ' he has the highest ceiling of any O linemen in the draft, but you haven't watched his games, have you (be honest). You're 100% going off someone else's opinion that you've read.

Look, you COULD be 100% correct, and all these guys could turn out to suck. ALL of the alternatives you mention COULD turn out to be plug n' play 10 year All Pros. The P + J regime could get Wilson killed and be on their way to the unemployment line. ANYTHING can happen.

The EVIDENCE of history suggests that P+J will hit on more than a few of these draftees AND rookie FA's, and that the team will continue to make the playoffs, and likely win at least a game in the playoffs.

How about we wait for thing to actually go in the shitter before obsessing about it?

No blind faith, just a wee bit of faith, based on <gasp>, actual evidence of past performance.

 

[Screamin12th]

I've read more than a few people on here say he's slow, when apparently he has 4.4 speed.

see thats the thing in shorts and a t-shirt he runs 4.4 but like they say on the football field he does not show that speed. That was also a knock on king who ran sub 4.4. They say it's not translating to the field. there is track speed and there is football speed and it doesn't always convert over. We have seen this before or i have so i am pretty sure you have. Ok lets look at Ross this dude was fast but is he 4.22 fast on the football field? no i would say he looks more like a 4.3-4.4 guy, fast yes but he doesn't look like 4.22 fast. Then there is the flip side and i will pull Jerry Rice out of retirement for this one or even Fitz. Rice ran a 4.67 and i think Fitz ran a 4.65 yet on the field both these guys look more like 4.4 guys. Think about all the time they ran away from people yet here they are running almost 4.7 40's. Kam runs a 4.7 40 but when you see him on the football field he looks like a 4.5 guy.

some guys speed transitions over into football some guys it doesn't. It's understandable when you throw on the gear ( try it some time go find someone who has a FULL set of football pads.) I love a good 40 speed just like everyone else but i also will blow that same 40 speed off if i know that the player doesn't play that fast on the field.

 

[Uhsplit]

it was a statement about throwing a bunch of shit into a fan and hoping some of it stick, I said like throwing darts. when you looked at the players available when the Hawks picked it felt like they were just throwing darts and had no plan going in. Now we know that isn't the case but that still doesn't explain why they were leaving 1st and 2nd round graded players at need positions on the board and drafting 4th or 5th and some times 6th round graded players in the 3rd.

Weak draft for Oline i know this and said as much, matter of fact i said that maybe MAYBE 2 Olineman in this draft class would be drafted in the first round in other drafts and i was laughed at by that comment well slap my silly i was right. How many Olineman were drafted in the first round? This team needed a play maker at OLB not a fill in but a starter and play maker, they had their chance to get such a player TWICE and thumbed their noses at it.

They needed to find a CB that had a chance to beat out Shead who might not be ready week one so they needed someone that could start in a pinch they ignored that. Shead is not a great corner and i think we can all agree on that. Finding someone to replace him would have been nice and would have instantly made the secondary better. The CB they picked is more of the same in my eyes and might have a chance to beat out Shead but he is more like a clone of Shead. King would have been a upgrade and in my eyes has a higher ceiling than Shead who i feel we have seen the best we are going to see from him. Sherman being on the trading block also means they very well could be looking for TWO CB that can start and play in the NFL SOON ( maybe not this year but next year). They didn't seem to care.

Ok the Oline. Weak class we all know this some better than others so you might have to dig. They grabbed a guy who's best position is Center. Why? Our best Olineman on the team right now ( Sorry Ifedi ) plays CENTER! Ok Pocic played all over the line, Guard and even a little tackle but lets not kid ourselves he was BAD as a tackle not just bad but Horrible. Ok so lets look at what they picked up in FA a guard another guard oh a guard. WTF! Lamp was there for them to pick up and i bet he becomes the best Olineman in this draft because again he in my eyes again has the highest ceiling. They could have plugged him in at RG and slid Ifedi out to tackle and if Ifedi fails at tackle they could have slid Lamp out there. I can not see Pocic at tackle ...can you REALLY see that?

Yes there was some picks i liked, The Hawks First pick wasn't a bad one just not as much of a need in my eyes because we had DT's injured last year that will be back or 100% this season that are young. Reed was dinged up last season ( high ankle sprain or was that Jefferson? ) and he will improve Quinton Jefferson will improve and is a young guy. They talk about getting pressure from inside and yet draft a 1.5 sack guy..... Both WR i totally understand because there is a need there and they addressed it with a couple guys that could blossom. both are bigger WR 220+ 6foot + and both are very raw but could develop into #3 or 4 guys. Darboh in college was this guy that just improved every year. They thought someone else was going to over take him but he just took on that challenge and won, love that style of personality. Guy has desire and want to in him ala Baldwin.

Not Drafting a OLB in my eyes was a mistake, they could have instantly made the defense better just with that move alone. This hurts more knowing there was players for the taking that would have been starters at OLB ( ok should never say would but ill say should ).

Now i do not know the team inside and out like Carrol and JS do, i only know what i see in games and in film just like the rest of you. But i think we all know where this team is weak/thin and i just feel like they could have did so much more to help bolster those "THIN" area's than they did. And lets not fool our selves, these two have reached a lot in the 3rd through 5th rounds and have hit on some but missed on most.

At least they didn't draft a DT to play Oline this season. After Day 2 i said i give them a D-, i now say it's a D. Also sucks to see the Hawks in many places as the biggest losers of the draft after what the Bears pulled you would think they would be the lock for that honor. This just goes to show that being able to see through Seahawk colored glasses is not a strong point on this board.

the BS emoji was because of this comment by you "We've gotta' ship these two outta' town pronto. Maybe Mike Shanahan is available." as a total over reaction post to my opinion. I still have faith in Pete and JS but having faith and being blind are two VERY different things. I will not BLINDLY follow and agree i will use my own judgement like we all should do but many of you seem to think this FO can do no wrong. Supporting someone doesn't mean you have to blindly follow and agree with them 100% of the time.

You had a long post and I was planning to read it's entirety until I reread your feelings, again, about the bolded statement. I quit reading at that point because you don't "get it".
You again confirm that you just do not understand P's and J's drafting philosophy. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO RATES PLAYERS in whichever round. It ONLY matters where they have them positioned. WHEN YOU CONTINUALLY GRIPE about taking 6th rounders in the 3rd, what you should understand is that is where P&J have that player positioned. Using your example, P&J have him rated as a 3rd while others have him rated as a 6th.
When you hear JS say they stay true to the board, this is exactly what they mean. Your argument is that the FO and the scouts and everyone else committed to player acquisition cannot adequately value players coming out of college ie, selecting 6th rounders in the 3rd.
Yet, with that position, their draft history would make you look out of touch.

 

[MrS]

Does it matter where we have guys ranked if they will still be there in a later round? No, not really.

Getting value is also about knowing where other teams have guys ranked. It appears we dont know or dont care how players are viewed by other teams.

Picking a guy 3 rounds ahead of where he shpuld be taken according to the concensus is just stupid.

 

[Warden]

A.Curry had a GREAT interview how did that turn out for the Hawks?

Completely irrelevant. A completely different management and coaching staff was in place when we drafted Curry

 

[chf]

see thats the thing in shorts and a t-shirt he runs 4.4 but like they say on the football field he does not show that speed. That was also a knock on king who ran sub 4.4. They say it's not translating to the field. there is track speed and there is football speed and it doesn't always convert over. We have seen this before or i have so i am pretty sure you have. Ok lets look at Ross this dude was fast but is he 4.22 fast on the football field? no i would say he looks more like a 4.3-4.4 guy, fast yes but he doesn't look like 4.22 fast. Then there is the flip side and i will pull Jerry Rice out of retirement for this one or even Fitz. Rice ran a 4.67 and i think Fitz ran a 4.65 yet on the field both these guys look more like 4.4 guys. Think about all the time they ran away from people yet here they are running almost 4.7 40's. Kam runs a 4.7 40 but when you see him on the football field he looks like a 4.5 guy.

some guys speed transitions over into football some guys it doesn't. It's understandable when you throw on the gear ( try it some time go find someone who has a FULL set of football pads.) I love a good 40 speed just like everyone else but i also will blow that same 40 speed off if i know that the player doesn't play that fast on the field.

Right, and this is why I trust the scouting department of our team to be able to tell the difference. Which they seem to be able to do at a higher rate than the mean. But essentially you're taking some other publication's eyeball opinion of the player as not having game speed. Or about Lamp's potential to have the highest ceiling IN THE DRAFT.

If you put Sherman in a footrace, he's going to lose to a BUNCH of players in the NFL. But he knows how to use his length, and is smart enough to make up for it. He's in the right place at the right time, most of the time. Deep balls and he's nearly flawless.

Is Griffin going to be that good? Probably not, since Sherman has been arguably the best corner in the game for the last five years. But how about we at least watch him in some practices and through the pre-season before we judge whether he has a chance to be at least good?

Seattle has of course, the player I think of first when it comes to results over measurables, and that was Largent. No one could really explain HOW a slow footed white guy could do the things he could do on the football field. Baldwin has some of that same route running and savvy.

Seattle in the new regime has a knack for finding these guys, so I'll be curious to see which of this year's draft class will pan out.

 

[flyerhawk]

Does it matter where we have guys ranked if they will still be there in a later round? No, not really.

Getting value is also about knowing where other teams have guys ranked. It appears we dont know or dont care how players are viewed by other teams.

Picking a guy 3 rounds ahead of where he shpuld be taken according to the concensus is just stupid.

If they rate a player as the best player available, why should they draft someone else instead?

There are no style points for how you draft.

 

[chf]

Does it matter where we have guys ranked if they will still be there in a later round? No, not really.

Getting value is also about knowing where other teams have guys ranked. It appears we dont know or dont care how players are viewed by other teams.

Picking a guy 3 rounds ahead of where he shpuld be taken according to the concensus is just stupid.

Depends if EVERYONE else is on board with that consensus, doesn't it? Let's use Wilson as an example. We got him in the third. Some people at the time wailed and moaned that we COULD have waited and got him even later since he was too short to actually play in the NFL. Project!

Later we find out that Philly essentially had him written down on their slip of paper and WERE going to draft him right after we did. So if we'd gotten too cute, and waited until our 4th round pick, Philly would now have Wilson playing for them, and we'd be... probably still Lombardi-less.

In hindsight, Wilson would have been INCREDIBLE value if we'd taken him with our 2nd round pick. How many teams would re-draft and take him with their first round pick?

Draftniks get WAAAAAY too focused on perceived value. This guy has a 5th round grade, so anyone who takes him before the fifth is an idiot, and of course NO-ONE else would dare take him earlier! It's just us who's stupid!

In your perfect world, there's no Philly Eagles who think outside the box and are going to draft Wilson in the 3rd round too. Those teams don't exist. They all follow blindly along with whatever draft publications you read, and would never rank a guy higher than they do.

Sadly that world is only in your imagination.

 

[JMR]

How do we know where a player "should" be drafted? "We took a 6th rounder player in the 3rd...blahblahblah.." Is there a parallel universe where the draft already took place and we are comparing this one to that to see where these players "should" have been taken?

 

[MrS]

If they rate a player as the best player available, why should they draft someone else instead?

There are no style points for how you draft.

The point is getting value. Theres no value taking players rounds early when you know they will be there later.

As far as Wilson goes, word is the eagles were going to pick him right after us. In fact Schneider wanted him round one but we waited because we knew nobody else had him ranked that high. Thanks for the excellent example.

 

[chf]

From NFL.com

Wilson is this year's big-time question mark at quarterback. Unlike those who have held this title in the past, Wilson is a stellar passer who shows arm strength and accuracy when he is able to deliver the ball without a hitch. A transfer from North Carolina St. over the summer, he has outstanding football intelligence as he picked up the Wisconsin offense in a short time and was the opening-day starter. However, at his height teams will have concerns whether or not he can see to make the throws at the next level. He is a mechanical mover who has strong technique and leadership qualities. If Wilson were three inches taller there would be debate at the top of the draft as to where he fits in, but look for teams to take a flier on him in late rounds to see if he can develop and outplay his size.

ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS
Wilson is an accurate passer. He is a very mechanical quarterback who is consistent in his drop step and thoroughly understands how to move within the pocket and evade when the pocket collapses. He is an athlete and can torque his body to make any sort of throw on the run, and is accurate in this setting. He is a born signal caller who shows command of the offense. He has the arm strength to make the deep throws and the touch to put it on a receiver in stride. He is effective when scrambling and is a classic play extender.
WEAKNESSES
Wilson's height will be his biggest inhibitor at the next level and the largest reason for his late-round value. It remains to be seen if he can throw effectively from the pocket at the next level.

Bolded emphasis mine.

We were idiots for drafting him so soon, see it says so on NFL.com. It's 'NFL' dot come for crissakes! It's in the name. Fuck were we stupid.

/sarcasm.

 

[chf]

As far as Wilson goes, word is the eagles were going to pick him right after us. In fact Schneider wanted him round one but we waited because we knew nobody else had him ranked that high. Thanks for the excellent example.

Heh. Holy cognitive dissonance Batman.

 

[chf]

Is there a parallel universe where the draft already took place and we are comparing this one to that to see where these players "should" have been taken?

In draftnik's imaginations. Which are super-duper powerful and can influence space-time.

 

[Warden]

The point is getting value. Theres no value taking players rounds early when you know they will be there later.

Value is not based on what you or the media thinks, value is based on the Seahawks Draft board

 

[JMR]

Value is not based on what you or the media thinks, value is based on the Seahawks Draft board

And it's also predicated on how the player actually turns out. Russell Wilson....was a "reach" in the 3rd round (even though a team picked a punter before we picked Wilson) because he "should have" gone later, but now he's viewed as one of the biggest draft steals ever. We got who is probably the best player from that entire draft in the 3rd round. That is value.

 

[Judge Fudge]

Interesting story in our Canadian draft pick

Canadian OT Senior selected by Seahawks - Article - TSN

 

[chf]

Thought this was apropos.

 

[Uhsplit]

Does it matter where we have guys ranked if they will still be there in a later round? No, not really.

Getting value is also about knowing where other teams have guys ranked. It appears we dont know or dont care how players are viewed by other teams.

Picking a guy 3 rounds ahead of where he shpuld be taken according to the concensus is just stupid.

It is not as stupid as putting a pick down before he has had a chance to show his wares.
If our roster is redrafted, they go for a lot more than we paid in a majority of cases.
Where should Sherm, Kam, KJ, Wags, Russell, et all have been drafted?

 

[Uhsplit]

Thought this was apropos.

With those kind of reviews, none of those bums should have ever made an NFL roster.