Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs- who was better

[Rock Strongo]

That is interesting that he hit 24 HRs in 1987, before the big Steroid era... and then never had more than 11 in any other season...

Also interesting that in this comparison, Gwynn had 5 double digit HR seasons compared to only 2 by Boggs... But again, i cant really use the power numbers because that is not either players game... and don't forget, Fenway was a much friendlier park than Jack Murphy was

for a lefty?

not so much. lotta shit off the wall holmes. he wasnt a pull hitter. thus a lot of doubles.

 

[Rock Strongo]

gwyns high in K's was 40. fourty. 51 walks that year. boggs highest K season was 68. he walked 87 times that year.

thats ridiculous for both. i remember a time when guys were petrified of 100 k's, like those 2.

gwyns high in walks was 82. boggs beat that 9 times. boggs once walked 125 times, and struck out 34 times.

 

[ChicagoIrish]

Wade Boggs

Who wouldn't take a good 3B over a good RF?

 

[mrwallace2ku]

@HammerDown Tony Gwynn approved thread…i voted accordingly.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I agree that Gwynn wasn't consistent force at base running... But outside of the great ones, not many were... being a 4 time 30+ SB guy is something pretty special, even if his ratios were not anything special... and again, that is comparing him to a player who was not a SB guy at all... a slow footed man...

I also agree that there is positional value... But I will admit, I don't like using offensive numbers to show them... I think they are a separate factor...

IMO when comparing players there are 3 categories(some have sub categories of course)

1. Offense( I don't care what defensive position you played- all players are compared equally)
2. Defense
3. Base running

I am pretty much disregarding defense because I will admit, I have no clue how to compare a 3B who'se defensive metrics show he was a good defensive 3B with 2 GG compared to a RF with 5 GG but his defensive metrics don't show he was anything special...

either way IMO it is splitting hairs...

I do find it funny, that all the posters so far are red sox fans...

1. Yes, I'm just saying that while he would have the edge in baserunning, it isn't significant.

2. You don't like using offensive numbers to compare positional value? I'm not talking about defensive value when I talk positional. I'm talking about the value of the offense when it comes from that position. Of course you have to take into account offensive numbers. A .300 average from a LFer isn't as valuable as a .300 average from a catcher.

3. You can disregard defense all you want but I think that's just ignoring information.

4. Boggs isn't exactly beloved by Red Sox fans, there was an uproar when they decided to retire his number. I don't really care for him either way because I was 3 when he left the Red Sox. Bias has nothing to do with this. I argued against Jim Rice in the HOF and I argue FOR Mike Mussina.

 

[navamind]

Gwynn, and it's really not close

ahahahahahahaha

 

[MilkSpiller22]

1. Yes, I'm just saying that while he would have the edge in baserunning, it isn't significant.

2. You don't like using offensive numbers to compare positional value? I'm not talking about defensive value when I talk positional. I'm talking about the value of the offense when it comes from that position. Of course you have to take into account offensive numbers. A .300 average from a LFer isn't as valuable as a .300 average from a catcher.

3. You can disregard defense all you want but I think that's just ignoring information.

4. Boggs isn't exactly beloved by Red Sox fans, there was an uproar when they decided to retire his number. I don't really care for him either way because I was 3 when he left the Red Sox. Bias has nothing to do with this. I argued against Jim Rice in the HOF and I argue FOR Mike Mussina.

2. No, i don't like using offensive numbers to compare defensive positions... That's the biggest reason i hate WAR... I am not saying i don't give defensive value to the harder positions, but i do that separately... I compare offensive batters to offensive batters...

The one thing i do look at though is the players ideal spot in the batting order based on career/ and best season stats(often batters who bat someplace in real life are not where they should be based on their stats)...

I see both Boggs and Gwynn to be ELITE 2 hole batters... and maybe that is why i give the edge to Gwynn, because i think the one hole and 2 hole should get at least SOME stolen bases...

The reason Boggs is a 2 hole batter IMO, is because of his elite contact rate, elite BABIP and elite Walk rate... while he doesn't have the power to be an ideal #3 hitter... the only thing he lacks in the 2 hole is the speed... why i consider Gwynn slightly the better 2 hole hitter...

3. i didn't say i disregard defense metrics... my point was more about which metrics do we take... if a player wins 5 GG but there dWAR is a negative, do we say he was a bad defender, or is it someplace in the middle... then there is boggs who had a good dWAR(not special) but only had 2 GG... Now again, i know GG is a popularity contest as well, but we are talking about dinner table named players... so was Boggs' metrics a little over-rated?? i just don't know...

4. luckily in this comparison, we are not talking about whether either deserve to make the HOF... both are clear HOFs... I am a yankee fan, and i don't think Mussina belongs, but i do think Schilling belongs... and i hate schilling...

 

[navamind]

2. No, i don't like using offensive numbers to compare defensive positions... That's the biggest reason i hate WAR... I am not saying i don't give defensive value to the harder positions, but i do that separately... I compare offensive batters to offensive batters...

The one thing i do look at though is the players ideal spot in the batting order based on career/ and best season stats(often batters who bat someplace in real life are not where they should be based on their stats)...

I see both Boggs and Gwynn to be ELITE 2 hole batters... and maybe that is why i give the edge to Gwynn, because i think the one hole and 2 hole should get at least SOME stolen bases...

The reason Boggs is a 2 hole batter IMO, is because of his elite contact rate, elite BABIP and elite Walk rate... while he doesn't have the power to be an ideal #3 hitter... the only thing he lacks in the 2 hole is the speed... why i consider Gwynn slightly the better 2 hole hitter...

3. i didn't say i disregard defense metrics... my point was more about which metrics do we take... if a player wins 5 GG but there dWAR is a negative, do we say he was a bad defender, or is it someplace in the middle... then there is boggs who had a good dWAR(not special) but only had 2 GG... Now again, i know GG is a popularity contest as well, but we are talking about dinner table named players... so was Boggs' metrics a little over-rated?? i just don't know...

4. luckily in this comparison, we are not talking about whether either deserve to make the HOF... both are clear HOFs... I am a yankee fan, and i don't think Mussina belongs, but i do think Schilling belongs... and i hate schilling...

I'll take the SS that hits .280/.360/.500 over the 1B that hits .290/.370/.510 100% of the time, even if they're not a good defender.

come on dude, it does matter how a player performs versus everyone else at their position.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I am actually leaning towards Gwynn... Both were insane contact hitters with great batting averages... Boggs was better at getting on base... But Gwynn was the more valuable base runner, with 3 seasons of 30+ SB at better than 70% rate...

But it is really splitting hairs for me...

It's a tiny bit too simplistic but I would absolutely take an extra 40 walks a year over an extra 20 SBs a year, especially since the SBs would also come with extra CS outs made.

 

[soxfan1468927]

2. No, i don't like using offensive numbers to compare defensive positions... That's the biggest reason i hate WAR... I am not saying i don't give defensive value to the harder positions, but i do that separately... I compare offensive batters to offensive batters...

The one thing i do look at though is the players ideal spot in the batting order based on career/ and best season stats(often batters who bat someplace in real life are not where they should be based on their stats)...

I see both Boggs and Gwynn to be ELITE 2 hole batters... and maybe that is why i give the edge to Gwynn, because i think the one hole and 2 hole should get at least SOME stolen bases...

The reason Boggs is a 2 hole batter IMO, is because of his elite contact rate, elite BABIP and elite Walk rate... while he doesn't have the power to be an ideal #3 hitter... the only thing he lacks in the 2 hole is the speed... why i consider Gwynn slightly the better 2 hole hitter...

3. i didn't say i disregard defense metrics... my point was more about which metrics do we take... if a player wins 5 GG but there dWAR is a negative, do we say he was a bad defender, or is it someplace in the middle... then there is boggs who had a good dWAR(not special) but only had 2 GG... Now again, i know GG is a popularity contest as well, but we are talking about dinner table named players... so was Boggs' metrics a little over-rated?? i just don't know...

4. luckily in this comparison, we are not talking about whether either deserve to make the HOF... both are clear HOFs... I am a yankee fan, and i don't think Mussina belongs, but i do think Schilling belongs... and i hate schilling...

1. But you have to use offensive numbers in order to determine positional value. A catcher isn't just more valuable than a first baseman with similar offensive numbers just because of his defense. He's more valuable because it is harder to find a catcher with good offensive numbers as opposed to a first baseman.

2. Completely depends on the lineup. I don't want my 2nd hitter getting thrown out on the basepaths if I have a great 3/4 combo behind me.

3. I'm sure it's somewhere in the middle, but Gold Gloves really are meaningless while defensive metrics actually have a method behind them. The problem with using Gold Gloves at all is it only accounts for 5 and 2 seasons of their careers. What if Boggs finished 2nd a bunch of times while Gwynn finished outside the top 10. We don't know. It's incomplete AND questionable data. Buddy Bell and Robin Ventura are two of the greatest defensive 3rd basemen of all time, Boggs happened to play at the same time as them.

4. I know, I'm just pointing out that I'm not biased. I think Schilling is better but I would vote for Mussina as well. The 2nd tier of the tremendous 90s pitchers gets overlooked outside of Glavine/Smoltz. I guess that's the problem with pitching next to 4 of the top 10 pitchers of all time.

 

[soxfan1468927]

It's a tiny bit too simplistic but I would absolutely take an extra 40 walks a year over an extra 20 SBs a year, especially since the SBs would also come with extra CS outs made.

Dragon, was that you who used to use the analogy of the intramural softball league where you needed to start one girl? In explaining positional value?

 

[DragonfromTO]

1. But you have to use offensive numbers in order to determine positional value. A catcher isn't just more valuable than a first baseman with similar offensive numbers just because of his defense. He's more valuable because it is harder to find a catcher with good offensive numbers as opposed to a first baseman.

2. Completely depends on the lineup. I don't want my 2nd hitter getting thrown out on the basepaths if I have a great 3/4 combo behind me.

3. I'm sure it's somewhere in the middle, but Gold Gloves really are meaningless while defensive metrics actually have a method behind them. The problem with using Gold Gloves at all is it only accounts for 5 and 2 seasons of their careers. What if Boggs finished 2nd a bunch of times while Gwynn finished outside the top 10. We don't know. It's incomplete AND questionable data. Buddy Bell and Robin Ventura are two of the greatest defensive 3rd basemen of all time, Boggs happened to play at the same time as them.

4. I know, I'm just pointing out that I'm not biased. I think Schilling is better but I would vote for Mussina as well. The 2nd tier of the tremendous 90s pitchers gets overlooked outside of Glavine/Smoltz. I guess that's the problem with pitching next to 4 of the top 10 pitchers of all time.

While it's entirely speculation I also kind of suspect that Jim Rice would have been really fucking pissed if someone was running all over the place while he was trying to hit anyway

 

[DragonfromTO]

Dragon, was that you who used to use the analogy of the intramural softball league where you needed to start one girl? In explaining positional value?

I can't believe that you remember that was me. I don't know what to say man, I feel like Sally Field at the Oscars hahaha.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I can't believe that you remember that was me. I don't know what to say man, I feel like Sally Field at the Oscars hahaha.

Hahaha I knew it was someone from the old ESPN boards. I don't know why these things stick in my head. I remember talking with ImSmartherThanYou about his argument for Dave Concepcion to be a HOFer about 5 years after it happened.

 

[Shoeshine Boy]

Even disregarding positions, I'd still take Boggs.

A lineup with 9 Boggs will beat a team with 9 Gwynns with stunning regularity.

 

[Mondo Jay]

Didn't Boggs drink like 500 beers on a cross-country flight once?

 

[msgkings322]

Gwynn, and it's really not close

Actually the opposite. Boggs and it's not really close.

Career WAR Boggs 91.1 Gwynn 68.8

If it were within 4-5 they would be comparable, But it's a rout.

 

[broncosmitty]

Gwynn, and it's really not close

Same here.


But I'm not a Rays fan either.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Actually the opposite. Boggs and it's not really close.

Career WAR Boggs 91.1 Gwynn 68.8

If it were within 4-5 they would be comparable, But it's a rout.

Using WAR as the end all is for egg heads that don't get the game

 

[PolarVortex]

So there is a terrible thread out there pairing Tony Gwynn with Torii Hunter... So thought to make a thread up for an actual good comparison...

Yes, one played 3B and the other is a RF... who would you take??

You would have been better off comparing Gwynn to Ichiro. Both are power-limited, lefty-hitting, right fielders.

Coming up with a natural comparison to Boggs much more difficult. Looking down the HOF list, the best comparisons I could see were Pie Traynor or Home Run Baker. Offensively, Boggs was not your proto-typical third baseman.