Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs- who was better

[navamind]

Using WAR as the end all is for egg heads that don't get the game

k

 

[PolarVortex]

for a lefty?

not so much. lotta shit off the wall holmes. he wasnt a pull hitter. thus a lot of doubles.

There was a lot of speculation that the ball was juiced in '87. That was McGwire's rookie year when he hit 49. It was also Dawson's big homer season with the Cubs.

 

[navamind]

There was a lot of speculation that the ball was juiced in '87. That was McGwire's rookie year when he hit 49. It was also Dawson's big homer season with the Cubs.

The rabbit ball: Did it happen here?

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I am actually leaning towards Gwynn... Both were insane contact hitters with great batting averages... Boggs was better at getting on base... But Gwynn was the more valuable base runner, with 3 seasons of 30+ SB at better than 70% rate...

But it is really splitting hairs for me...

Me too...Gwynn had incredible plate coverage, but so did Boggs....if I had to chose one I'd go Gwynn because I'd want more power from 3B.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You would have been better off comparing Gwynn to Ichiro. Both are power-limited, lefty-hitting, right fielders.

Coming up with a natural comparison to Boggs much more difficult. Looking down the HOF list, the best comparisons I could see were Pie Traynor or Home Run Baker. Offensively, Boggs was not your proto-typical third baseman.

Yea, Ichiro is a better comparison for Gwynn...

 

[navamind]

Me too...Gwynn had incredible plate coverage, but so did Boggs....if I had to chose one I'd go Gwynn because I'd want more power from 3B.

Right Field's a power hitting position too.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Right Field's a power hitting position too.

Yeah true...you'd take power where ever you can get it, but 3B has always been one of those 4,5,6 hitters in my mind. You could probably name as many power hitting RF players as I can great glove and speed RF players.

 

[navamind]

Yeah true...you'd take power where ever you can get it, but 3B has always been one of those 4,5,6 hitters in my mind. You could probably name as many power hitting RF players as I can great glove and speed RF players.

Can't argue with that. I would say the offensive bar for right fielders is a bit higher than 3rd base though. organize by OPS+

Third Base JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

Right Field JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[soxfan1468927]

Yeah true...you'd take power where ever you can get it, but 3B has always been one of those 4,5,6 hitters in my mind. You could probably name as many power hitting RF players as I can great glove and speed RF players.

I'm sure being a Braves fan and having Chipper Jones plays a factor in that mindset.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'll take the SS that hits .280/.360/.500 over the 1B that hits .290/.370/.510 100% of the time, even if they're not a good defender.

come on dude, it does matter how a player performs versus everyone else at their position.

IMO, this is such a difficult topic to explain... But I will try... Please bare with me...

I do agree that if you take 2 similar offensive bats, I would almost always prefer the player at the less crowded position...

Again, the first thing I do when I compare players is that I put them in an ideal offense, and where they SHOULD bat based on their stats(doesn't matter where they really did bat)...

I take Gwynn over Boggs solely because of the speed...

But lets talk general.

Player A vs player B

Both are ideal middle of the lineup hitters... with BAs over .300 and 162 game average of 20+ HRs...

Player B averages 30 HRs per year, 100 RBIs, and a 390 OBP, and 940 OPS
Player A averages 25 HRs per year, 85 RBIs, .350 OBP, and below .900 OPS

Player A has a better WAR7 than player B due to position played

who would you rather have??

BTW: this is a simplified Robinson Cano Vs a simplified Miguel Cabrera- just in case you needed to know the players- even though I am trying to be general here...

IMO, the answer is clearly Cabrera... having him in the middle of the lineup is much more dominant than having cano... does it matter what the rest of the second baseman can do??

Replacement numbers are pointless for Cano, because if he does get hurt, do you really think the new middle of the order guy is going to be his 2B replacement?? of course not, it is going to be the next best hitter the team has...

There is no direct replacement for anybody.... sure you are more likely to replace Cabrera with a decent bat than you are cano... But the replacement is never going to have the same role...

Then there is also the whole money thing... Unless we are talking about a team like the Yankees who have an unlimited payroll, taking any similar offensive player, the player who plays the weaker position generally will always get paid significantly more... if you can get the same production for less money why not take it?? chances are you are going to have a piss poor 8 and 9 hitter anyway...

And again, I do count defensive position... just not as much as I guess others do...

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Can't argue with that. I would say the offensive bar for right fielders is a bit higher than 3rd base though. organize by OPS+

Third Base JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

Right Field JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

Good point.

The top 10 of the RF list would mop the floor with the 3B list in terms of power...lol

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Can't argue with that. I would say the offensive bar for right fielders is a bit higher than 3rd base though. organize by OPS+

Third Base JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

Right Field JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

I do think though that you can hide your lack of power better at RF than 3B though...

 

[soxfan1468927]

IMO, this is such a difficult topic to explain... But I will try... Please bare with me...

I do agree that if you take 2 similar offensive bats, I would almost always prefer the player at the less crowded position...

Again, the first thing I do when I compare players is that I put them in an ideal offense, and where they SHOULD bat based on their stats(doesn't matter where they really did bat)...

I take Gwynn over Boggs solely because of the speed...

But lets talk general.

Player A vs player B

Both are ideal middle of the lineup hitters... with BAs over .300 and 162 game average of 20+ HRs...

Player B averages 30 HRs per year, 100 RBIs, and a 390 OBP, and 940 OPS
Player A averages 25 HRs per year, 85 RBIs, .350 OBP, and below .900 OPS

Player A has a better WAR7 than player B due to position played

who would you rather have??

BTW: this is a simplified Robinson Cano Vs a simplified Miguel Cabrera- just in case you needed to know the players- even though I am trying to be general here...

IMO, the answer is clearly Cabrera... having him in the middle of the lineup is much more dominant than having cano... does it matter what the rest of the second baseman can do??

Replacement numbers are pointless for Cano, because if he does get hurt, do you really think the new middle of the order guy is going to be his 2B replacement?? of course not, it is going to be the next best hitter the team has...

There is no direct replacement for anybody.... sure you are more likely to replace Cabrera with a decent bat than you are cano... But the replacement is never going to have the same role...

Then there is also the whole money thing... Unless we are talking about a team like the Yankees who have an unlimited payroll, taking any similar offensive player, the player who plays the weaker position generally will always get paid significantly more... if you can get the same production for less money why not take it?? chances are you are going to have a piss poor 8 and 9 hitter anyway...

And again, I do count defensive position... just not as much as I guess others do...

But it's not just about replacement players or how much easier it is to find someone if one gets hurt. This is about actually winning games.

Every team has to play a 2nd baseman, and if your 2nd baseman is better than the other team's 2nd baseman, you have an advantage. If most teams have a poor offensive player at 2nd base, and you have an excellent one at 2nd base, you gain a significant advantage. Your 1st baseman can be a better hitter than your 2nd baseman, but if he isn't better than most of your opponent's 1st baseman, you don't have an advantage.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But it's not just about replacement players or how much easier it is to find someone if one gets hurt. This is about actually winning games.

Every team has to play a 2nd baseman, and if your 2nd baseman is better than the other team's 2nd baseman, you have an advantage. If most teams have a poor offensive player at 2nd base, and you have an excellent one at 2nd base, you gain a significant advantage. Your 1st baseman can be a better hitter than your 2nd baseman, but if he isn't better than most of your opponent's 1st baseman, you don't have an advantage.

and this is what I disagree about... you don't have an advantage at all... you assume that because your second baseman is better than mine, that your offense is better than mine... If you are counting on your second baseman to be your 4th hitter, and my 4th hitter is better than your 4th hitter, then my offense is probably gonna be better than yours...


it is all about where in the lineup he bats... if you are saying that you lucked into having a good offensive second baseman, but he is still your 9th best hitter, then sure your offense will be insane...

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I'm sure being a Braves fan and having Chipper Jones plays a factor in that mindset.

Yep...at one time I was a much bigger MLB fan...most of that time the Braves were terrible...but even then Bob Horner was a guy I liked.

Speaking of Chipper...I actually got to meet Chipper Jones...sort of....more of a brush with greatness actually.

My next door neighbor was a builder his company and was finishing the basement and pool on Chipper's new house...(after the divorce). He took me over there to help him take measurements for a bar in the basement. Lo and behold...Chipper was leaving in his truck as we pulled up. As we were passing in his driveway...rolls down the window to say hi to my neighbor, waves at me. That was it.

The wife was overseeing the remodel so most of our time was spent with her.

 

[soxfan1468927]

and this is what I disagree about... you don't have an advantage at all... you assume that because your second baseman is better than mine, that your offense is better than mine... If you are counting on your second baseman to be your 4th hitter, and my 4th hitter is better than your 4th hitter, then my offense is probably gonna be better than yours...


it is all about where in the lineup he bats... if you are saying that you lucked into having a good offensive second baseman, but he is still your 9th best hitter, then sure your offense will be insane...

I'm not saying you have an overall advantage on offense, I'm saying you have an advantage at that position. If my second baseman is better than your second baseman, are you saying that's not an advantage?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'm not saying you have an overall advantage on offense, I'm saying you have an advantage at that position. If my second baseman is better than your second baseman, are you saying that's not an advantage?

right back at ya, if I am saying my #4 hitter is better than your number 4 hitter is that not saying I have the advantage??

point is that a player is not just a defensive player being compared to another teams player of the same position... he is also compared to the player who hits in the same lineup spot...

and wouldn't you agree that a teams 1-5 hitters is where that team will generally do MOST of their damage...

 

[soxfan1468927]

right back at ya, if I am saying my #4 hitter is better than your number 4 hitter is that not saying I have the advantage??

point is that a player is not just a defensive player being compared to another teams player of the same position... he is also compared to the player who hits in the same lineup spot...

and wouldn't you agree that a teams 1-5 hitters is where that team will generally do MOST of their damage...

1. Yes you have an advantage if your 4 hitter is better than my 4 hitter. What's your point here?

2. Why would you compare him to the same spot in the lineup? Lineups are waaaay more fluid than positions on the diamond. You can't just plug anyone into playing 2nd base like you can plug anyone into hitting clean up.

3. Sure. I don't know what your point here is either.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Here's the scenario:

2nd baseman has worse offensive numbers than the 1st baseman.
2nd baseman is on a team where he's the best option to hit 4th.
1st baseman is on a team where he's the best option to hit 4th.

The place in the lineup is dependent on the team around them. It doesn't make the 2nd baseman less valuable just because he's the best option for that team. That's why I think it's silly to compare lineup spots. If the 2nd baseman was on a team with 3 mashers, and was hitting 2nd or 6th, would that make him more valuable because then we would compare him to other 2 and 6 hitters?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

1. Yes you have an advantage if your 4 hitter is better than my 4 hitter. What's your point here?

2. Why would you compare him to the same spot in the lineup? Lineups are waaaay more fluid than positions on the diamond. You can't just plug anyone into playing 2nd base like you can plug anyone into hitting clean up.

3. Sure. I don't know what your point here is either.

its the same 1 to 1 comparison... if you have the better 2B, you have the advantage, but if I have the better #4 hitter then I have the advantage... But one player is never only one thing...

I have never said, I wouldn't want the better player at the SAME position... we have always been talking about talking about players of 2 different positions...

My point is that I don't care much about the defensive value difference between positions(except for catcher, I always want a good defensive catcher)... the debate is very complex though, because the better player generally means that the player is better offensively... Just for argument sake lets assume there is no big difference between the 2 players at the same position defensively... ONLY offensively...

so, your 2B has the higher WAR7 than my 1B... But my 1B has the better OPS...
My 2B is a weak hitter and hits in the bottom of the lineup...

Are we assuming that you now, have no weak hitters??

Lets just say it this way, if we are starting a team, I will always choose better offensive players first... then worry about balancing my team with good defense afterwards...(OUTSIDE OF PITCHING)