Reds-Cubs thread

[Kate Upton]

This is 100% right, I could not agree more. I don't see how you other reds fans don't get it. Do you not watch the games? The man is doing all he can, he is gonna put up elite numbers once again and gets the job done. He is once again going to be a MVP candidate, on the count that he leads the universe in OBP.

How do you not get it?

Nobody is saying that he's a bad hitter, but he's NOT the player we gave a 12 year extension to.

Compare Joey Votto to other 3 hole hitters of teams who don't have a problem scoring runs...

Votto with RISP: .308, 40 RBI in 138 plate appearances

Allen Craig: .469, 76 RBI in 133 plate appearances

Miguel Cabrera: .436, 81 RBI in 153 plate appearances

And with 2 out and RISP?

Votto: .138, 8 RBI in 37 PA's

Craig: .471, 33 RBI in 59 PA's

Cabrera: .457, 35 RBI in 63 PA's

Joey Votto 2013 Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com

Allen Craig 2013 Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com

Miguel Cabrera 2013 Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com


Now if Votto had those kind of numbers in those situations, or even close to them (which he is paid to have by the way) do you think this team would have the offensive troubles that it often has?

Would they be 12 games up in the division?

Damn right they would be.

Votto's raw numbers are fine, but when you dig into them, they aren't so good, at least in the area's this team needs them to be to maximize the potential of this offense.

 

[Kate Upton]

And in XBH's?

Votto is tied for 28th...

Yes...that's two eight...

Behind such highly regarded sluggers like Kyle Seager, Ian Desmond, and Kendrys Morales.

Stop making excuses for Votto. He needs to be better than what he's been.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sort/extraBaseHits/type/expanded/order/true

 

[JohnU]

The babes at Wrigley Field lead the league in RISP.

 

[Kate Upton]

The babes at Wrigley Field lead the league in RISP.

I'm sure they do...

Along with BJWP (below jobs while plastered)

 

[Tubbs1518]

Votto also hasn't hit well in the clutch situations. I don't have any stats to back me up, but it seems every game for the last month, if it is close late in the game he either hits into a dp, strikes out looking or pops out. Every time.

 

[Kate Upton]

Votto also hasn't hit well in the clutch situations. I don't have any stats to back me up, but it seems every game for the last month, if it is close late in the game he either hits into a dp, strikes out looking or pops out. Every time.

Late and close, defined as 7th inning or later with the batting team tied, ahead by 1, or the tying run at least on deck...

.286, 9 RBI in 91 plate appearances, 20 walks, and 18 K's.

Not terrible, but not good enough either.

Joey Votto 2013 Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[JohnU]

I guess the OBP is a nice part of Votto's game but it's not really what I want the No. 3 hitter to necessarily lead the "universe" in ... unless he's hitting .387 with 30 dingers. The problem with JV being on first base is that it takes a long hit to score him and BP and Bruce just haven't shown that they can put two of them together. When they do, the Reds typically score.

The biggest bummer with this team is the long stretches of not getting any baserunners at all, let alone the RISP ... The notion that you can hang around till the 7th and tack on a couple of runs -- all that is, to me, is a phony definition of small ball.

Votto would be better served to start hacking at fastballs and, lately, it seems he may just be doing that.

 

[JohnU]

I'm sure they do...

Along with BJWP (below jobs while plastered)

Well, they were NL-C divisional leaders today in extremely short shorts.
Honestly, I was freezing my ass off up in the shade and ... not these chicks.
Most of them are pretty young, though, so I won't get any cruder than this.

 

[redsfan03]

Well, they were NL-C divisional leaders today in extremely short shorts.
Honestly, I was freezing my ass off up in the shade and ... not these chicks.
Most of them are pretty young, though, so I won't get any cruder than this.

No kidding. I ended up going to today's game as well as last night's game and I froze. That wind was brutal. I was too busy shivering to notice any sights to be seen...

 

[Kate Upton]

I guess the OBP is a nice part of Votto's game but it's not really what I want the No. 3 hitter to necessarily lead the "universe" in ... unless he's hitting .387 with 30 dingers. The problem with JV being on first base is that it takes a long hit to score him and BP and Bruce just haven't shown that they can put two of them together. When they do, the Reds typically score.

The biggest bummer with this team is the long stretches of not getting any baserunners at all, let alone the RISP ... The notion that you can hang around till the 7th and tack on a couple of runs -- all that is, to me, is a phony definition of small ball.

Votto would be better served to start hacking at fastballs and, lately, it seems he may just be doing that.

I agree about the OBP thing, and I don't think he should be the 3 hole hitter doing what he's been doing.

He should be the 2 hole hitter if he's intent on being a table setter.

Hell, even the 4 spot would be better when you consider his 2nd inning leadoff walks or singles are theoretically more damaging than his 2 out 1st inning walks or singles.

The problem is he's not driving the ball, as evidenced by his woeful XBH numbers, and driving the ball is what his salary, his lineup position, and his role on this team is what is necessary from him.

BTW, Bruce is 4th in MLB in XBH's.

 

[Kate Upton]

And another thing...

Why the fuck does he still choke up with 2 strikes?

He's K'd exactly 100 times for crissakes!

 

[Tubbs1518]

I agree about the OBP thing, and I don't think he should be the 3 hole hitter doing what he's been doing.

He should be the 2 hole hitter if he's intent on being a table setter.

Hell, even the 4 spot would be better when you consider his 2nd inning leadoff walks or singles are theoretically more damaging than his 2 out 1st inning walks or singles.

The problem is he's not driving the ball, as evidenced by his woeful XBH numbers, and driving the ball is what his salary, his lineup position, and his role on this team is what is necessary from him.

BTW, Bruce is 4th in MLB in XBH's.

I think this is a much more dangerous lineup if you go

Choo
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Ludwick
Frazier
Cozart
Meso

 

[JohnU]

I think this is a much more dangerous lineup if you go

Choo
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Ludwick
Frazier
Cozart
Meso

Man, that Ludwick, Frazier, Cozart run there ... pretty scary.

This is a team of slashers, and the problem is they don't get a real good idea what they are slashing at.
Most of the league is better than Chris Rusin.

 

[Tubbs1518]

Man, that Ludwick, Frazier, Cozart run there ... pretty scary.

This is a team of slashers, and the problem is they don't get a real good idea what they are slashing at.
Most of the league is better than Chris Rusin.

See I put the crap hitters at the end that way they don't kill a run hitting 2nd. Use the back part of your lineup for guys that only score when hitting HR's. Choo and Votto can get on base and Phillips and Bruce knock them in.

 

[WvuDieHard]

Wow the Votto bashers are just nauseating. Let's get one thing straight here, How the fuck can you bitch and complain about a guy hitting over .320? Ok, he doesn't have the RBI's, he doesn't knock in runners in keys situations but he does have a very high on base percentage. We wouldn't even be having this conversation about Votto if those bums Frazier and Cozart would hit the ball consistently. You better be damn glad you got Joey Votto on this team.

 

[JohnU]

I think this is a case of asking a decent team to exceed expectations. If they do that, they will probably have more success. Now, success compared to say ... the Angels, this team has far and away met that criteria.

Votto needs to be more than just an MVP candidate to head this team. He has to be far and AWAY the best hitter in the NL. So far, he's not. For whatever reasons, we have to ask JV to get "two hits" every time he comes up because some of these guys aren't going to get any at all.

I think the bashing here isn't that he's not a good player but that his contributions are just not enough at times. It's tough to pin blame on the team's top hitter but he needs to carry the Reds. The blame is probably elsewhere but our expectations of Cozart and Frazier at the plate are predictably that they just aren't going to deliver.

But on Wednesday, they did -- and Votto wasn't as "necessary" -- so, see how that works?

 

[JohnU]

See I put the crap hitters at the end that way they don't kill a run hitting 2nd. Use the back part of your lineup for guys that only score when hitting HR's. Choo and Votto can get on base and Phillips and Bruce knock them in.

The problem with that strategy is that nobody hits .800 and if you pitch around the guys who beat you, you can exploit the others fairly easily. You gotta have churn ... baserunners every inning, even if you leave a lot of them on.

All in all, I like the idea of Votto hitting 2nd and IF our cleanup and No. 5 guy were capable of driving the ball more than they strike out, we could see a lot of early 3-run innings.

Honestly, that is how the Cardinals win -- and when they don't, that's also why. Key to their lineup is hitting garbage, and hitting it hard.

 

[Redsfan1507]

The 2 hole is just that- a hole. Choo doesn't hit lefties, so the leadoff slot is less than desired roughly a third of the time. The LF platoon hadn't hit the long all much, and Frazier, Cozart, the pitcher and catcher are normally outs. There's only so much offense 3-2/3 hitters can generate. My biggest complaint with Phillips is his .260 batting average and zero walks, for no more homers than he hits as a tablesetter hitting 20-40 points higher. He's also a pull GB prone hitter, a bad thing if you have a couple runners on, especially a runner at 3b with 1 out. The Reds do miss some runs starving for a sac fly. Votto a singles hitter ? He has more homers than BP...as does the leadoff hitter, Choo. BP is underpowered for a 3 or 4 spot.

BP or Votto isnt the real problem...Hell they used to say Dunn took too many pitches because he walked 100 times a year, even though he Kd twice that much. Teams that still score when they need to with as many lineup holes as the Reds, do a couple things the Reds don't- they walk more, the steal more, and the make more productive outs. So, the roster is limited, but so is the philosophy.

It all starts and ends with pitching and defense, and the Reds have that. It's why they play as well as they do.

The farm is huge in sustained winning, and the Reds can't afford for committed starters like Frazier, or an everyday outfielder to be a loss at the plate. Corner inf/of simply have to hit to justify a job. If you don't believe in a bunt or steal to advance, and you only have one .300 hitter and 2 .400 OBP guys, you are forced to live on homers and 2 out hits, both statistically lower odds occurances. That is why the Reds normally starve.

I find it weird that people blame the loss of Ludwick, when in the lineup it was actually BP replacing him, very well. Choo has blown Stubbs away, and even Frazier has bettered the Rolen contribution. It was trying to replace BP in the 2 hole with Cozart, and the unending list of outs that has really hurt the Reds. The Reds do get them in, it's getting them on and over that is the problem.

 

[4down20]

Probably upset because they had the pitchers on their fantasy teams and couldn't get an easy win for the week.

 

[Redsfan1507]

Oh, yes...Votto has popped up in the infield ONE time this year. It made the news. He's only had like 4 infield popups in 4 years. It's amazing. So it's not Votto popping up in clutch situations. It's no secret. Pitchers are more careful with Votto than any of the other swingaholics. Level of difficulty for him to drive the ball exceeds anything any other Reds hitter gets.