Jon Daniels might be the problem

[TheRangerDude]

My response was mostly to those we "let get away" Napoli had a bum hip and had never showed himself to be much of a 1B and was coming off a bad season, he ended up signing a bargain basement deal b/c he failed a physical, then CHOSE to return to BoSox after winning a WS even though we made a competitive offer

Kinser was traded to make room for Profar, no way anyone could've known Profar would get hurt, in all fairness betting money that Kinsler would get hurt was a MUCH better bet

The only issue I have is what seems like dropping the ball on a potential physical or missing a physical issue with Fielder, no one really knows for sure what happened

anyone who can fault us for letting Hamilton go after the last couple seasons is borderline retarded

Abreu is probably one that hurts but he got big money and was a total unknown and wildcard coming from Cuba and sitting a long time, props to the ChiSox for that score, we weren't he only ones scared and we were already up against the budget

And we've discussed Cruz ad nauseum, he CHOSE to leave, get over it, we offered him the QO and probably offered something in line with what he got from Baltimore, its done

As far as Ryan goes, he was great for image but I doubt he ever had much say in personnel decisions, I'm sure he was allowed his 2 cents but thats about it, and his absence has little impact on the long term success of this ballclub

It's comments like this that make me say JD seems to get a free pass or forgiven more than most. Seems like he out of most is given the benifit of the doubt more than anyone else. I am not necessary disagreeing with your response, which is more directed towards nightcrawlers comment than mine, but just pointing out how JD tends to get some excuses for his fall backs where others do not:

1. Not signing Napoli- JD Excuse: bum hip, not good 1B, bad season.

The hip issue wasn't found out until after the physical and at this time Nap still could have very well been considered at C or 1B early on before the physical. Be that as it may, he really was very vocal in wanting to return and yet we never made him an offer that he accepted. Before anything was found out about the hip, he accepted a fairly reasonable deal with the Sox for 3 years and 39 million. At the time, I think most of us here would have thought he was worth that. It was later that he failed the physical and the hip issue was exposed and then the Red Sox offer was off the table. We then had fair game to go back in and sign and were again, in talks but lost him to a $5M one year deal with some incentives. Seems like he could have slide nicely into the DH and filled in some 1B for us vs the $10M or so were spent on Berkman. Personally, I see this is a mistake no matter what excuses are made. Also, I think hindsight does matter when you are judging a GM as they are really supposed to be predicting how someone will do in the future when they sign. them. It's a very very difficult task but thats what they get paid for and to JDs credit, he has also done really well on a lot of moves too.

2. Kinsler trade- Excuse: needed to be traded to make room for Profar

I agree we needed to make room and have been very vocal that I favored this trade. However, it it back fires, it was not a move that needed to be made. We did need to move someone though: Kins, Andrus, or Profar. Or at least move one of them to a new position.

3. No Physical for Prince- Benefit of the doubt: no one really knows what happened

Does it matter what happened? These things don't just appear overnight and you have to do your research when you make the sort of investment into anything.

4. Hamilton- No need for an excuse here. We didn't let him walk, he just left and didn't give us an opportunity to sign him. That being said, after his MVP year we really should have given him a contract extension that he requested in 2011... he did earn that then- no matter how he played down the stretch in 2012.

5. Abreu- no excuses here... I completley agree with your assessment... sure would have been nice but no fault of JDs here.

6. Cruz- JD Excuse: Made a QO and a competitive offer to DH afterwards

I have dropped it and understand that he did in fact have a offer to DH after the O's offer now and have retracted the argument. But the fact remains that we could have worked out an extension for him a few years back as well or just flat out saved some money by signing him for a few year vs signing Choo for 7 years. Or even better, signed Choo and Cruz and traded Rios. I stand firm that I agree with signing Choo even though I think we paid for too long, however, rosters are very malleable and there are tons of ways to make other things work.

7. Davis- JD Excuse: Never would have had success here too much pressure

I know you didn't mention this one but I had to throw it in here. Honestly, I have even caught myself saying it but it may be one of the biggest cliche ones out there. I mean how can anyone know this, including Davis?

7. Nolan- JD/Ownership Excuse: He really didn't do much and him being gone will not effect much

I never have been one to debate what Nolan did or did not do. I really have no idea. I do know that when he got here though, our pitching sure seemed to get better and also we seemed to shift our focus more on pitching. He also brought in Maddux, whom I think has made a major improvement to our pitching philosophy to the core. My Nolan Ryan Beef really is more or less the way he was treated walking out the door- I would have really liked things to end on better terms. I think the way things were structured in the organization were working fine- back-to-back WS runs. Why change the structure of things? This is really probably more on ownership than anyone else though. But Rumor has it JD was pushing for it.

This last part is really the issue I have with the FO that I was referencing in my original post. It seems like lately, at least going back to the MY trade and in reflection of his comments after he left, that they are not getting good things spread about them when players depart. This ties into the Nolan thing too, along with some of the ways we have approached FA with some of our other players and some of the ways we have done trades. On the surface, it would appear that we are not to loyal to the players that gave us the most. This defiantly has an effect on the team image but is more my personal opinion that it has an effect on the team culture and in the clubhouse.

The truth is I think as much as we know about things, we are still fans (fanatics) at some level where we will find ways to put a positive spin on the aspects of the team we like. I think JD has done a great job for us as GM but I also think he may have slipped a little over the last couple of seasons as well. It happens to the best of them. I also agree with DT in that if we were playing the team that JD intended us to be playing- we would be much better. There is no way we can account for the amount of injuries we have sustained this season.

Anyway, I didn't intend for this to be this long. JTA this is not a particular poke at you at all. I think lots of people agree with many the points you made, so they are just the points I used as excuses for JD. My explanations below them are truly just meant to show another way the same situation can be viewed in a different light. Really, the point was what I said at first- we sort of spin things for JD a little more than we do with others. I think I do this a little less than some of you so, I see it more. But I do my share of spinning for other people- I am sure you can guess who they are. If you made it this far, thanks for reading all of this whether you agree or not.

 

[fordman84]

I think Jack Daniels may have been OP's problem when he wrote this

 

[jta4437]

It's comments like this that make me say JD seems to get a free pass or forgiven more than most. Seems like he out of most is given the benifit of the doubt more than anyone else. I am not necessary disagreeing with your response, which is more directed towards nightcrawlers comment than mine, but just pointing out how JD tends to get some excuses for his fall backs where others do not:

1. Not signing Napoli- JD Excuse: bum hip, not good 1B, bad season.

The hip issue wasn't found out until after the physical and at this time Nap still could have very well been considered at C or 1B early on before the physical. Be that as it may, he really was very vocal in wanting to return and yet we never made him an offer that he accepted. Before anything was found out about the hip, he accepted a fairly reasonable deal with the Sox for 3 years and 39 million. At the time, I think most of us here would have thought he was worth that. It was later that he failed the physical and the hip issue was exposed and then the Red Sox offer was off the table. We then had fair game to go back in and sign and were again, in talks but lost him to a $5M one year deal with some incentives. Seems like he could have slide nicely into the DH and filled in some 1B for us vs the $10M or so were spent on Berkman. Personally, I see this is a mistake no matter what excuses are made. Also, I think hindsight does matter when you are judging a GM as they are really supposed to be predicting how someone will do in the future when they sign. them. It's a very very difficult task but thats what they get paid for and to JDs credit, he has also done really well on a lot of moves too.

2. Kinsler trade- Excuse: needed to be traded to make room for Profar

I agree we needed to make room and have been very vocal that I favored this trade. However, it it back fires, it was not a move that needed to be made. We did need to move someone though: Kins, Andrus, or Profar. Or at least move one of them to a new position.

3. No Physical for Prince- Benefit of the doubt: no one really knows what happened

Does it matter what happened? These things don't just appear overnight and you have to do your research when you make the sort of investment into anything.

4. Hamilton- No need for an excuse here. We didn't let him walk, he just left and didn't give us an opportunity to sign him. That being said, after his MVP year we really should have given him a contract extension that he requested in 2011... he did earn that then- no matter how he played down the stretch in 2012.

5. Abreu- no excuses here... I completley agree with your assessment... sure would have been nice but no fault of JDs here.

6. Cruz- JD Excuse: Made a QO and a competitive offer to DH afterwards

I have dropped it and understand that he did in fact have a offer to DH after the O's offer now and have retracted the argument. But the fact remains that we could have worked out an extension for him a few years back as well or just flat out saved some money by signing him for a few year vs signing Choo for 7 years. Or even better, signed Choo and Cruz and traded Rios. I stand firm that I agree with signing Choo even though I think we paid for too long, however, rosters are very malleable and there are tons of ways to make other things work.

7. Davis- JD Excuse: Never would have had success here too much pressure

I know you didn't mention this one but I had to throw it in here. Honestly, I have even caught myself saying it but it may be one of the biggest cliche ones out there. I mean how can anyone know this, including Davis?

7. Nolan- JD/Ownership Excuse: He really didn't do much and him being gone will not effect much

I never have been one to debate what Nolan did or did not do. I really have no idea. I do know that when he got here though, our pitching sure seemed to get better and also we seemed to shift our focus more on pitching. He also brought in Maddux, whom I think has made a major improvement to our pitching philosophy to the core. My Nolan Ryan Beef really is more or less the way he was treated walking out the door- I would have really liked things to end on better terms. I think the way things were structured in the organization were working fine- back-to-back WS runs. Why change the structure of things? This is really probably more on ownership than anyone else though. But Rumor has it JD was pushing for it.

This last part is really the issue I have with the FO that I was referencing in my original post. It seems like lately, at least going back to the MY trade and in reflection of his comments after he left, that they are not getting good things spread about them when players depart. This ties into the Nolan thing too, along with some of the ways we have approached FA with some of our other players and some of the ways we have done trades. On the surface, it would appear that we are not to loyal to the players that gave us the most. This defiantly has an effect on the team image but is more my personal opinion that it has an effect on the team culture and in the clubhouse.

The truth is I think as much as we know about things, we are still fans (fanatics) at some level where we will find ways to put a positive spin on the aspects of the team we like. I think JD has done a great job for us as GM but I also think he may have slipped a little over the last couple of seasons as well. It happens to the best of them. I also agree with DT in that if we were playing the team that JD intended us to be playing- we would be much better. There is no way we can account for the amount of injuries we have sustained this season.

Anyway, I didn't intend for this to be this long. JTA this is not a particular poke at you at all. I think lots of people agree with many the points you made, so they are just the points I used as excuses for JD. My explanations below them are truly just meant to show another way the same situation can be viewed in a different light. Really, the point was what I said at first- we sort of spin things for JD a little more than we do with others. I think I do this a little less than some of you so, I see it more. But I do my share of spinning for other people- I am sure you can guess who they are. If you made it this far, thanks for reading all of this whether you agree or not.

They did know something about Napoli's hip before, which is "part" of the reason they didn't offer him a QO, they just didn't know exactly what it was. it had caused him problems throughout the season. spending that money on Berkman was a mistake, no doubt, but at the time there was jack shit out there and we needed a bat, it was a 1 year gamble that didn't pan out... biggest mistake of that was to continue to keep him on the roster after they realized he was trash

On Fielder, I simply said, all the info isn't out or isn't being said, don't even know who's to blame here yet, and with the Profar deal, at the time you can find a handful of people that panned that deal, so to bring that up now is just absurd, talk about hindsight is 20/20, the only negative of that deal is the assumed dropping of the ball on Fielder's physical

I'm glad Hamilton is gone, he was a mental midget and injury prone, and anyone that truly thinks otherwise is an idiot, and is just trying to ruffle feathers now, not going to debate that and thank God we didn't give him an extension at that time

Davis was given an absurd number of chances and didn't perform, at some point you cut your losses and move on

You can disagree all you want but frankly I don't give a shit anymore

 

[TheRangerDude]

They did know something about Napoli's hip before, which is "part" of the reason they didn't offer him a QO, they just didn't know exactly what it was. it had caused him problems throughout the season. spending that money on Berkman was a mistake, no doubt, but at the time there was jack shit out there and we needed a bat, it was a 1 year gamble that didn't pan out... biggest mistake of that was to continue to keep him on the roster after they realized he was trash

On Fielder, I simply said, all the info isn't out or isn't being said, don't even know who's to blame here yet, and with the Profar deal, at the time you can find a handful of people that panned that deal, so to bring that up now is just absurd, talk about hindsight is 20/20, the only negative of that deal is the assumed dropping of the ball on Fielder's physical

I'm glad Hamilton is gone, he was a mental midget and injury prone, and anyone that truly thinks otherwise is an idiot, and is just trying to ruffle feathers now, not going to debate that and thank God we didn't give him an extension at that time

Davis was given an absurd number of chances and didn't perform, at some point you cut your losses and move on

You can disagree all you want but frankly I don't give a shit anymore

I had forgotten about that with Nap so thanks for pointing that out.

On Fielder... I think it doesn't matter what comes out... that's on JD to figure out before he pulls the trigger as he is the one making the decision.

As far as debating this further that's fine I really don't care either I just wanted to point out several things an used your response as a medium to do that.

I think you are a really smart guy and I respect what you have to say most of the time but most of this goes down the toilet when you freely attack people's intelligence based on their opinion. Even when this is done indirectly. Anyway carry on as you like but I don't think it's necessary, nor does it validate your points any more... In many cases I feel it takes away from them.

 

[jta4437]

I had forgotten about that with Nap so thanks for pointing that out.

On Fielder... I think it doesn't matter what comes out... that's on JD to figure out before he pulls the trigger as he is the one making the decision.

As far as debating this further that's fine I really don't care either I just wanted to point out several things an used your response as a medium to do that.

I think you are a really smart guy and I respect what you have to say most of the time but most of this goes down the toilet when you freely attack people's intelligence based on their opinion. Even when this is done indirectly. Anyway carry on as you like but I don't think it's necessary, nor does it validate your points any more... In many cases I feel it takes away from them.

I attack certain people's intelligence when its obvious they are just trying to stir shit up as Nightcrawler tends to do

All we know at this point is that Fielder had a stiff neck last year, we don't even know what it was bc of, some are just assuming it was the current issue,

if there was nothing there, there was nothing there, which i've heard stories stating both, so if we did our due diligence then I don't see how that's on JD, if he didn't then it is, simple as that

 

[TheRangerDude]

I attack certain people's intelligence when its obvious they are just trying to stir shit up as Nightcrawler tends to do

All we know at this point is that Fielder had a stiff neck last year, we don't even know what it was bc of, some are just assuming it was the current issue,

if there was nothing there, there was nothing there, which i've heard stories stating both, so if we did our due diligence then I don't see how that's on JD, if he didn't then it is, simple as that

Fair enough, perhaps you know more about the Fielder situation. I haven't read too much into it. Just seems to me if you are going to make that sort of investment, you do all your homework first. I know I would. The fact that they didn't do a physical sure makes it seem like they didn't do their homework though. I mean I realize it likely would have not caught this issue but just the given that they didn't do one sure doesn't make look like they looked at much.

As nightcrawler stirring up stuff... if that is his intention, aren't you just giving him what he wants when you insult him?

 

[jta4437]

Fair enough, perhaps you know more about the Fielder situation. I haven't read too much into it. Just seems to me if you are going to make that sort of investment, you do all your homework first. I know I would. The fact that they didn't do a physical sure makes it seem like they didn't do their homework though. I mean I realize it likely would have not caught this issue but just the given that they didn't do one sure doesn't make look like they looked at much.

As nightcrawler stirring up stuff... if that is his intention, aren't you just giving him what he wants when you insult him?

Considering he hasn't even responded to his own post, not really

The only reason I followed up was b/c actual posters started to get involved

 

[Nightcrawler]

Considering he hasn't even responded to his own post, not really

The only reason I followed up was b/c actual posters started to get involved

I had fun reading this thread. I think most people are too supportive of JD. I don't like hearing " trust in JD" so often. The man is good, but I don't think he's the god that people on this board make him out to be. In some ways, your brilliance can work against you. Ever since JD pulled off the Teixeira trade, other GMs in the league have been wary of JD. For instance, that douchebag Kevin Towers in Arizona wanted our whole farm system for Justin Upton. There is still a long way to go, but it looks like so far that Dombrowski pulled a fast one on Daniels.

 

[jta4437]

I had fun reading this thread. I think most people are too supportive of JD. I don't like hearing " trust in JD" so often. The man is good, but I don't think he's the god that people on this board make him out to be. In some ways, your brilliance can work against you. Ever since JD pulled off the Teixeira trade, other GMs in the league have been wary of JD. For instance, that douchebag Kevin Towers in Arizona wanted our whole farm system for Justin Upton. There is still a long way to go, but it looks like so far that Dombrowski pulled a fast one on Daniels.

I've never said "trust in JD" and I feel he should be held accountable when appropriate, Fielder trade as a potential example, and not sending Berkman packing when given all the reason in the world to