Is Miguel Cabrera the best hitter ever

[soxfan1468927]

You joking, right? now we have to break the great hitters down to home/away stats? So lets do it for Ted Williams...or Joey D....Babe Ruth...you have to be joking...I will pass, lol....definately the most assinine comment read tonight......Walker must have hit .500 at home to get .379 for the season, lol....too funny. Lefties at the old yankees stadium had an advantage...the Green Monster played a part....Wrigley during the day....guess we can find out stats at select stadiums next, lol.

Will say Walkers power and numbers fell after 32 yrs old, just like Dale Murphy and the others...lets see how Miggy handles it.

Walker nearly did hit .500 at home in '99 (he hit .461). He put up a line of .461/.531/.879/1.410 at home and just .286/.375/.519/.894 on the road. That doesn't tell you something?

In his career Walker hit .380/.461/.709/1.170 in Colorado and .279/.369/.494/.863 away from Colorado. Basically he was Babe Ruth in Colorado and John Olerud away from there.

Williams, Ruth, and DiMaggio didn't have anywhere close to as drastic of home/away splits (in fact DiMaggio hit better on the road) that's why it's a non factor for them. When the splits are this drastic you should absolutely take them into account when evaluating a player. Why wouldn't you?

 

[soxfan1468927]

There is no doubt this guy is a great hitter but it showed in the playoff what happens when a player gets knicked up and how you play through injuries.

Don't misunderstand what I'm about to say because I think Cabrera is a great hitter but I think he is somewhat overrated. I say this because it's not that difficult for a great hitter to put up big numbers when you're completely healthy but to continue doing it when your somewhat injured is another story. Cabrera's numbers fell off drastically after being knicked up. What happens if Cabrera stays banged up for an extended period of time and isn't able to put up huge numbers like he did before is he still a great hitter? Truly great hitter produce at a high level even when they are injured. They learn to play through injuries. One example I'll use is Mickey Mantle, he played through pain most of his career and put up great numbers.

I'm saying lets not put Cabrera in the elite category until he proves he can produce while playing through injuries like alot of the other greats have done.

Elite as far as what? Elite all time? Sure let's hold off on that one. Reason being he hasn't played long enough, nothing to do with injuries. Elite as far as right now? If you aren't putting him as an elite hitter right now then you haven't been paying attention.

You say that it isn't difficult for a great hitter to put up great numbers when you're completely healthy. Where the hell do you get that idea? It's EXTREMELY difficult.

 

[Wazmankg]

You joking, right? now we have to break the great hitters down to home/away stats? So lets do it for Ted Williams...or Joey D....Babe Ruth...you have to be joking...I will pass, lol....definately the most assinine comment read tonight......Walker must have hit .500 at home to get .379 for the season, lol....too funny. Lefties at the old yankees stadium had an advantage...the Green Monster played a part....Wrigley during the day....guess we can find out stats at select stadiums next, lol.

Will say Walkers power and numbers fell after 32 yrs old, just like Dale Murphy and the others...lets see how Miggy handles it.

You're just being silly if you don't account for the discrepancy between Walkers numbers at the launching pad in CO and everywhere else. He was 28 when he went to the Rockies... a 5 year vet who'd ever hit more than 23 bombs in a season. He played roughly 1/3 of his games at Coors where his line was .381, .462, .710, 1.162. You're just being dishonest when you pretend that didn't vastly inflate his numbers.

 

[StanMarsh51]

You're just being silly if you don't account for the discrepancy between Walkers numbers at the launching pad in CO and everywhere else. He was 28 when he went to the Rockies... a 5 year vet who'd ever hit more than 23 bombs in a season. He played roughly 1/3 of his games at Coors where his line was .381, .462, .710, 1.162. You're just being dishonest when you pretend that didn't vastly inflate his numbers.

In all fairness to Walker, he was on the verge of becoming a top hitter before he went to Coors...in his last 3 seasons in Montreal, he had a 137 OPS+ as a 25-27 year old, with 2 of those seasons being in the top 10 in OPS. When he left Colorado at age 37-38, he had a 134 OPS+ with the Cards in about a full season's worth of games.

So if you're combining his pre and post Rockie years his OPS+ is in the ballpark of 130, which is quite good, especially considering those occurred at the beginning and end of his careers.

I do think Walker gets a bad rap because of Coors, which leads many to underrate him....many have the impression that he was some scrub or ordinary player without Coors, but he was quite good before and after becoming a Rockie. I think his pre and post Rockie numbers show that was probably better than his road numbers as Rockie were (it might be that Coors inverse affect that some were talking about, on his the extremes of playing half the games at Coors may hurt the road numbers somewhat).

Matt Holiday's a somewhat similar case in that many looked at his road numbers as a Rockie and didn't think he'd be a great hitter elsewhere, but since leaving Colorado, he's hitting .305 with a 144 OPS+. The obvious difference b/w Holiday and Walker is that we got to see some of Holiday's prime as a non-Rockie.

 

[broncosmitty]

Miggy's already a better player/hitter than Andre, Rice, and Murphy. Better hitter than Walker, but Walker was a very good baserunner and defender. Murphy and Rice are overrated.

I remember Larry Walker more for his defense than anything else. That and being Canadian.

 

[navamind]

I remember Larry Walker more for his defense than anything else. That and being Canadian.

Very good defender and baserunner. He was a good hitter before Coors too (batted .281/.357/.483, 128 OPS+ as an Expo). Too bad the 1994 season was shortened, he was having a very nice year.

Coors helped him, but he certainly wasn't a product of the ballpark. He still would have been a damn good player.

 

[navamind]

In all fairness to Walker, he was on the verge of becoming a top hitter before he went to Coors...in his last 3 seasons in Montreal, he had a 137 OPS+ as a 25-27 year old, with 2 of those seasons being in the top 10 in OPS. When he left Colorado at age 37-38, he had a 134 OPS+ with the Cards in about a full season's worth of games.

So if you're combining his pre and post Rockie years his OPS+ is in the ballpark of 130, which is quite good, especially considering those occurred at the beginning and end of his careers.

I do think Walker gets a bad rap because of Coors, which leads many to underrate him....many have the impression that he was some scrub or ordinary player without Coors, but he was quite good before and after becoming a Rockie. I think his pre and post Rockie numbers show that was probably better than his road numbers as Rockie were (it might be that Coors inverse affect that some were talking about, on his the extremes of playing half the games at Coors may hurt the road numbers somewhat).

Matt Holiday's a somewhat similar case in that many looked at his road numbers as a Rockie and didn't think he'd be a great hitter elsewhere, but since leaving Colorado, he's hitting .305 with a 144 OPS+. The obvious difference b/w Holiday and Walker is that we got to see some of Holiday's prime as a non-Rockie.

Holliday's been pretty underrated. The signing by the Cardinals was blasted, but it's worked out pretty well so far.

 

[Darkstone42]

Walker nearly did hit .500 at home in '99 (he hit .461). He put up a line of .461/.531/.879/1.410 at home and just .286/.375/.519/.894 on the road. That doesn't tell you something?

In his career Walker hit .380/.461/.709/1.170 in Colorado and .279/.369/.494/.863 away from Colorado. Basically he was Babe Ruth in Colorado and John Olerud away from there.

Williams, Ruth, and DiMaggio didn't have anywhere close to as drastic of home/away splits (in fact DiMaggio hit better on the road) that's why it's a non factor for them. When the splits are this drastic you should absolutely take them into account when evaluating a player. Why wouldn't you?

I'm confused. Am I supposed to be somehow unimpressed with his road numbers? :confused2:

 

[navamind]

A RF that hits like Olerud and provides very good defense/baserunning is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[1905 Giants]

A RF that hits like Olerud and provides very good defense/baserunning is nothing to be ashamed of.

Seconded.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I'm confused. Am I supposed to be somehow unimpressed with his road numbers? :confused2:

No you're supposed to take all the information we have to make a full evaluation of a player. The poster I was responding to claimed we shouldn't use home/away splits when judging great hitters

 

[soxfan1468927]

A RF that hits like Olerud and provides very good defense/baserunning is nothing to be ashamed of.

Sure, but that's not the point of my post

 

[navamind]

Lol, I'd love to see someone try to justify Larry Walker finish tied for 24th in the 2001 NL MVP voting.

2001 Awards Voting - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[da55bums]

I think dabum's point was that unless Miggy falls apart like Pujols, that he will pass these guys up. Cabrera's numbers are better now (in some cases)....but he needs a little more longevity to solidify his position.

great concept Ronnie, glad all Tigers fans aren't all reading with Homerglasses.

 

[da55bums]

dabums you couldn't carry miggys jock.

this season..he got even better. his average was above .370 at one time. Then he got hurt. He woul have had his best season. and you knows how great a post season he would have had. We went into the post season with out his greatness. he limped along. foing the best he could. most players would have went on the DL. Iam sure if miggy wasn't hurt. tigers would be facing the cards in the 2013 WS. and getting the pay back we owe them...word

I couldn't carry Brandon Inge's jock or Avilas, or Kelly's or Santiago's, even Coke's either...anyone who has played in A ball or higher....not sure of the point.

 

[da55bums]

Did you honestly just put Miguel Cabrera in the same category with Dale Murphy, Andres Gallaraga and Larry Walker?

You may not like the Tigers, but you can't be that clueless. Cabrera didn't come out of nowhere to start putting up monster numbers. He has .321 CAREER batting average over 10 1/2 season. He has AVERAGED 36 homeruns and 120 rbi's a year over 10 1/2 years.

He isn't doing this with the benefit of playing home games at Coors Field, as Walker and Gallaraga did and he hasn't had a few year stretch of being great like Murphy, he has been one of the elite hitters for many years.

You are just making yourself sound really foolish with comments like that DaBums.

sure....I guess Walker, Gallaraga, Murphy, Rice all came out of NOWHERE, lol.....Walkers years before Coors were horrible....the POINT is simple....Miggy does it for 3 to 5 more years he may get to top 10 hitters of all time status......I HAVE ALWAYS AND REPEATEDLY said he is the BEST HITTER IN THE GAME currently and for the last 3 years....he CAN NOT be topped.....but if you are talking ALL TIME....HE IS NOT there yet....

Its not hard when you don't take it personal like I have attacked a family member, loose the homer glasses......if Miggy is top 5 of all time, then go ahead and tell me your top 5 and I will tear it apart....Miggy is at .321 career....HE WILL NOT END HIS CAREER at .321....I will guarantee that.

 

[navamind]

sure....I guess Walker, Gallaraga, Murphy, Rice all came out of NOWHERE, lol.....Walkers years before Coors were horrible....the POINT is simple....Miggy does it for 3 to 5 more years he may get to top 10 hitters of all time status......I HAVE ALWAYS AND REPEATEDLY said he is the BEST HITTER IN THE GAME currently and for the last 3 years....he CAN NOT be topped.....but if you are talking ALL TIME....HE IS NOT there yet....

Its not hard when you don't take it personal like I have attacked a family member, loose the homer glasses......if Miggy is top 5 of all time, then go ahead and tell me your top 5 and I will tear it apart....Miggy is at .321 career....HE WILL NOT END HIS CAREER at .321....I will guarantee that.

yeah... except they weren't. Get a clue.

 

[navamind]

On what planet is .281/.357/.483 and a 128 OPS+ "horrible"? He also put up 21.1 WAR in just 674 games as an Expo. That would rank 9th among the many amazing position players that wore a Kansas City Royals uniform. :rollseyes:

 

[da55bums]

yeah... except they weren't. Get a clue.

good to see you can't understand sarcasm also as well as my point, lol...so you agree that Walker hit well BEFORE Coors was his home stadium...thank you...I agree.

You have to be drunk or all homered up when you read my lines because you go straight to defensive mode...lol

 

[Howie115]

if he puts them up for 3 more years...even if he doesn't win a WS...

Well, I guess 10-1/2 seasons aren't enough. Miguel is still relatively young (30). He will have at least three more good seasons easily if he recovers from his injuries. Prior to this season, he has been very durable.... 150-160 games every year.

I do know this: Miggy just won his second straight Sporting News MLB Player of the Year Award. Only four players in history have done that: Ted Williams (1941-42), Joe Morgan (1975-76) and Albert Pujols (2008-09). Two Hall of Famers and one who will be.

The Sporting News voting wasn't even close. Cabrera with 141 votes, Chris Davis with 35, Mike Trout with 9, Clayton Kershaw and Andrew McCutcheon with 8.

Miguel Cabrera named Sporting News 2013 MLB Player of the Year - Bless You Boys