H2H Category discussion

[MilkSpiller22]

ERA and WHIP are not disadvantages to the 2 start pitcher strategy(if it is it is very minimal).

Here is why
1. ERA and WHIP are about how the pitcher actually has played- so don't pick the 2 start pitchers just because they are 2 start pitchers.

2. Teams that endorse the 2 start pitcher strategy exclusively generally do it because their pitching is weak, so they use the strategy to give themselves the best chance to win the only categories they think they can win...

Again, I have no problem with the 2 start strategy, but I just don't like how it gives you an overwhelming advantage in 2 categories, I just want to limit the advantage of the strategy... and this is H2H, not rotisserie, it doesn't matter how much you lose a category by, the only goal is to win more categories...

I also want to weaken the affect of the save category without weakening the importance of a RP... Those are my 2 goals in making the perfects scoring system... I am sure there is a better way to do it than I proposed, but to me it is clear that the traditional categories just don't work for a weekly scoring... Apparently though I am the only one...

***NOTE*** I am just pointing out what I see to be a problem H2H categories- I am not in anyway saying I don't enjoy these leagues, and want to continue doing them even if they don't change- Just pointing out what I think is a problem...

 

[TKOSpikes]

Milk. Ypu gotta just stop saying that man. It's just not true. There is NO overwhelming advantage with two start pitchers! Unless you're talking 13-5 or something drastic, but that's what waivers is for. And people do "just pick up 2 starters"...but looking for hidden value is part of that.

And limiting saves value limits the top tier closers, and trying to do some weird ratio for k's is crazy, especially coming from someone who wants to limit the ability to manipulate a week. You're completely ignoring individual strategies for RPs. Some punt. Some have three. Most have two. Rarely there's the guy with four. All of which you must react with your strategy against. You're taking that all away.

 

[tlance]

ERA and WHIP are not disadvantages to the 2 start pitcher strategy(if it is it is very minimal).

Here is why
1. ERA and WHIP are about how the pitcher actually has played- so don't pick the 2 start pitchers just because they are 2 start pitchers.

2. Teams that endorse the 2 start pitcher strategy exclusively generally do it because their pitching is weak, so they use the strategy to give themselves the best chance to win the only categories they think they can win...

Again, I have no problem with the 2 start strategy, but I just don't like how it gives you an overwhelming advantage in 2 categories, I just want to limit the advantage of the strategy... and this is H2H, not rotisserie, it doesn't matter how much you lose a category by, the only goal is to win more categories...

I also want to weaken the affect of the save category without weakening the importance of a RP... Those are my 2 goals in making the perfects scoring system... I am sure there is a better way to do it than I proposed, but to me it is clear that the traditional categories just don't work for a weekly scoring... Apparently though I am the only one...

***NOTE*** I am just pointing out what I see to be a problem H2H categories- I am not in anyway saying I don't enjoy these leagues, and want to continue doing them even if they don't change- Just pointing out what I think is a problem...

Milk, you are way off with this statement.

Go look at the prospect league free agent list, and tell me how many relievers have better ERA and WHIP numbers than Clayton Kershaw. There are a lot. Don't tell me that a good starter will have a comparable ERA and WHIP to a good reliever. It just isn't true.

In any given week, sure, the SP team could beat the RP team, but for the long term it won't even be close. Also, because it is so easy to find middle relief studs, teams could punt pitching all together in the draft and still be great in 3 categories.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Milk, you are way off with this statement.

Go look at the prospect league free agent list, and tell me how many relievers have better ERA and WHIP numbers than Clayton Kershaw. There are a lot. Don't tell me that a good starter will have a comparable ERA and WHIP to a good reliever. It just isn't true.

In any given week, sure, the SP team could beat the RP team, but for the long term it won't even be close. Also, because it is so easy to find middle relief studs, teams could punt pitching all together in the draft and still be great in 3 categories.

That was nowhere to what I was trying to say. Looks like once again I am having difficulty getting people to understand what I am trying to say. I really wish that I was better at that.

 

[TKOSpikes]

To me, you are trying to take away a perceived advantage for 2-start pitchers, and trying to combine saves, so they don't stand alone. That's what I understand. It's just the reasoning is wrong, or misguided.

We can debate it until the cows come home, but you know what? If we were to play two opponents each week, that would take away "bad beats", and could also limit an owner to go "all out" on one strategy that week. Baseball is such a long season, and even a week can be long... I think more games are very much needed. This isn't football, where a week is actually one game for a team.

 

[obxyankeefan]

I have always been a points man. In the five years or so I have been doing Roto H2H, I have found a 5X5 league is the more enjoyable. I prefer OBP over BA. I once did one that had TB instead of HRs, it was different but I wouldn't like to do it again.

pitching wise I would like something other then Wins, but what IDK.



just my two cents worth.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

To me, you are trying to take away a perceived advantage for 2-start pitchers, and trying to combine saves, so they don't stand alone. That's what I understand. It's just the reasoning is wrong, or misguided.

We can debate it until the cows come home, but you know what? If we were to play two opponents each week, that would take away "bad beats", and could also limit an owner to go "all out" on one strategy that week. Baseball is such a long season, and even a week can be long... I think more games are very much needed. This isn't football, where a week is actually one game for a team.

I dont mind admitting being wrong, but it is hard when i dont think my reasoning is understood... But i do agree that multi fantasy games per week would be great for the 2 start problem... But doesnt it weaken the importance of a closer too much??

But maybe i should quit the debate cause clearly i am not going to get you guys to understand what i am trying to say... I sometimes need a summarizer who can make my views more clear...


On second thouhgt i am milkspiller I never quit....

 

[TREFF]

Milk. . There's a difference between us understanding what you mean. . And just plain being wrong. You can attempt to explain it as much as you want. We get what your saying, and we (not trying to speak for anyone else but it does seem I'm not alone) simply don't agree with it, simple as that. Your explaining it fine, we get it.

 

[TREFF]

Not a big fan of multiple opponents every week. . Yet another layer of uneeded complication. Although it wouldn't be an end of the world scenario.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Milk. . There's a difference between us understanding what you mean. . And just plain being wrong. You can attempt to explain it as much as you want. We get what your saying, and we (not trying to speak for anyone else but it does seem I'm not alone) simply don't agree with it, simple as that. Your explaining it fine, we get it.

if i am explaining it well then why are all the counterpoints not issuing what i am trying to say... Dont worry, i dont blame you guys for not understanding what i am sayig i am blaming myself for not being a good enough explainer...

 

[TREFF]

if i am explaining it well then why are all the counterpoints not issuing what i am trying to say... Dont worry, i dont blame you guys for not understanding what i am sayig i am blaming myself for not being a good enough explainer...

Beside you're counterpoints aren't true? That'd be my guess

 

[tlance]

I think I get what you are saying. You don't want for fringe 2 start pitchers to have inflated value, so you want to make it more about the quality of the innings pitched, rather than the quantity so that the teams who invest highly in ace pitchers still have the advantage over teams who throw out a rag tag bunch of 2 starters.

While I understand your frustration, the solution that you are suggesting will actually make the problem worse and further deflate the impact of ace pitchers. Here are just a few guys who could have been attained via free agency by an owner who was punting pitching in the draft.

Dellin Betances- ERA: 1.44, WHIP: 0.74, W+S: 5 K/9: 13.37 K/BB: 5.10
Francisco Rodriguez- ERA: 2.89, WHIP: 0.92, W+S: 38 K/9: 10.35 K/BB: 5.55
Sean Doolittle- ERA- 2.44, WHIP: 0.64, W+S: 19 K/9: 12.72 K/BB: 18.75
Zach Britton- ERA- 1.57, WHIP: 0.87, W+S: 27 K/9: 7.65 K/BB: 3.27
Pat Neshak- ERA- 0.76, WHIP: 0.59, W+S: 8 K/9: 9.32 K/BB: 8.17
Jake McGee- ERA- 1.41, WHIP: 0.82, W+S: 15 K/9: 11.82 K/BB: 6.09

I could go on, but if the innings limit were removed even pitchers like Kershaw would see their values plummet because of the cheap availability and quick emergence of players like these. If anyone were able to assemble this group, even if you spent your first 7 picks on pitchers you would not be able to compete in most categories. Also, the elite closers would actually be significantly more valuable than guys like Kershaw. That is wrong in real life and should not be true here either. Changing Ks to either K/9 or K/BB would be the biggest mistake and would make all starting pitchers much less relevant.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think I get what you are saying. You don't want for fringe 2 start pitchers to have inflated value, so you want to make it more about the quality of the innings pitched, rather than the quantity so that the teams who invest highly in ace pitchers still have the advantage over teams who throw out a rag tag bunch of 2 starters.

While I understand your frustration, the solution that you are suggesting will actually make the problem worse and further deflate the impact of ace pitchers. Here are just a few guys who could have been attained via free agency by an owner who was punting pitching in the draft.

Dellin Betances- ERA: 1.44, WHIP: 0.74, W+S: 5 K/9: 13.37 K/BB: 5.10
Francisco Rodriguez- ERA: 2.89, WHIP: 0.92, W+S: 38 K/9: 10.35 K/BB: 5.55
Sean Doolittle- ERA- 2.44, WHIP: 0.64, W+S: 19 K/9: 12.72 K/BB: 18.75
Zach Britton- ERA- 1.57, WHIP: 0.87, W+S: 27 K/9: 7.65 K/BB: 3.27
Pat Neshak- ERA- 0.76, WHIP: 0.59, W+S: 8 K/9: 9.32 K/BB: 8.17
Jake McGee- ERA- 1.41, WHIP: 0.82, W+S: 15 K/9: 11.82 K/BB: 6.09

I could go on, but if the innings limit were removed even pitchers like Kershaw would see their values plummet because of the cheap availability and quick emergence of players like these. If anyone were able to assemble this group, even if you spent your first 7 picks on pitchers you would not be able to compete in most categories. Also, the elite closers would actually be significantly more valuable than guys like Kershaw. That is wrong in real life and should not be true here either. Changing Ks to either K/9 or K/BB would be the biggest mistake and would make all starting pitchers much less relevant.

finally someone starting to understand what i am saying, you have issued most of my concern about the 2 start pitcher.

But it is more than just that, how about the team that Drafts and only cares about offense, and then starts only 2 start pitchers(and this is why i am saying that 2 start pitchers Strategy has a huge advantage), if your offense is great and can generally win 3-5 categories every week, then having a pitcher strategy that can net you 2 categories the majority of the week(solely because they pitch more and not quality) is huge...

The thing about H2H categories is that it doesnt matter how badly you lose a category, so as long as you are better in more categories than the opponent you win... The strategy of quantity gives you an advantage in 2 categories, while the other 2 are about quality(which is not neccesarily a disadvantage for quantity)...

Like i said, i doubt my proposal is best, but there is a problem... I am not trying to end any particular strategy, but the fact that this strategy gives you an advantage in 2 categories is too much of an advantage... It should only be one category...


I know my proposal is not perfect, and might not even be good... but i am trying to fix a problem i see... and there are 2, its the 2 start pitchers and the Relief pitchers...

Maybe if you take my proposal and reput the innings limit it would work, maybe it wont...

 

[tlance]

I guess I just don't see it as a problem. The teams who invested highly in pitching this year are doing quite well (Micro, you, and Jim) are all top 3 in the standings in their respective leagues.

Considering that your team is 3rd in the H2H standings, but just 8th in roto, I would think that you would be pleased with the way this thing is playing out as you have done a nice job taking advantage of the set-up.

 

[TKOSpikes]

You're way off milk. You want to take away an entire drafting strategy now? The 2-start pitcher is a HUGE part of FBB. The 2-start Odorizzi or the one start Shields? Everyone has a question like that. Just because you have 2-start arms going doesn't mean you're winning anything. It depends who is pitching.I really don't see why you want to take this aspect if the game away. Everyone, every week has an advantage over someone in something... 2-start pitchers are just as much a part of those ads as the owner with Gordon, Billy and Altuve, or Kershaw, Felix and Wainwright. If you have 6 starts and your opponent has 11, too bad so sad. Go pick up a couple (and as you get further in season the harder it becomes to find capable matchups).... not their fault your bench is full of backup hitters.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You're way off milk. You want to take away an entire drafting strategy now? The 2-start pitcher is a HUGE part of FBB. The 2-start Odorizzi or the one start Shields? Everyone has a question like that. Just because you have 2-start arms going doesn't mean you're winning anything. It depends who is pitching.I really don't see why you want to take this aspect if the game away. Everyone, every week has an advantage over someone in something... 2-start pitchers are just as much a part of those ads as the owner with Gordon, Billy and Altuve, or Kershaw, Felix and Wainwright. If you have 6 starts and your opponent has 11, too bad so sad. Go pick up a couple (and as you get further in season the harder it becomes to find capable matchups).... not their fault your bench is full of backup hitters.

I am not trying to take away any strategy... I have stated that many times, i just dont want that alternative strategy to give you an advantage in more than one category...

 

[TKOSpikes]

More than one category. I'll give you K's, but I will not give you Wins. And the further away you are from a good pitcher, your era AND whip will likely hurt you. So that's the point I'm trying to make. You keep coming back with the multiple advantage thing like I didn't even rebut that statement.
You keep saying there are advantages that just aren't there. Sure, when a guy has Kershaw and Waino and Felix all going twice, you'll be at a disadvantage...but that's the price you pay for drafting hitters over aces, and conversely, it's his right to have that advantage once a month since they drafted aces early and often.

 

[TREFF]

I am not trying to take away any strategy... I have stated that many times, i just dont want that alternative strategy to give you an advantage in more than one category...

That's the entire point of having a strategy. . To get an advantage. . Even if it's only a perceived one. And whether you say your intention is or not. . That is exactly what this does. We get what you're wanting to do. . What you don't get is: #1, your proposal creates more issues than it "fixes", and #2, and probably most importantly, the "problem" your trying to fix, isn't a problem, simple as that. That is why no one is agreeing with your reasoning, not because we don't get what you're trying to say.

 

[tlance]

Like if you did the exact reverse and invested heavily in pitching, and then drafted a bunch of cheap speed. That would theoretically give you an advantage in runs and SBs.

Ironically, your current strategy is exactly like the one you want to do away, just the hitting version of it.

 

[Philabuster5]

I think I picked up a two-start guy once this year. Morton and it worked well. (I got lucky)
Every week I look and every week I say no way.
Might be a good strategy in 10 team leagues...or leagues that have less active P slots, (or semi-dead owners)... but I don't think it has played even the tiniest factor in our end results.

Maybe the low innings limit is a factor too. Heck, I'm enjoying running 5 closers out there this week