Butch Jones and Jim Harbaugh Are Both 6-5 in Their Last 11 Games

[Rolltide94]

I spotted them a pick 6, gave them a short field at the 25, and fumbled the ball on the goal line because the running back wouldn't put two hands on the ball. Everyone says we were blown out but the game was closer than the scoreboard tells.

Our offense is a rusted out 1986 Ford truck. Ugly to look at, but for the most part gets the job done. We have faced one very good defense in the rain and went ultra conservative to eat clock and not turn over the ball. Our defense is good but not great. We are probably a top 18-22 team but we are about to find out what we really are with home for Penn State next week and @Ohio State the week after.

Yeah, it was the fumbles and picks that I meant by being consistent...even worse when they come on what looked to be scoring drives.

They had a couple of big plays too that were a little fluky. That drive at the end of the game could have just as easily been to win with a few bounces.

 

[Volbound1700]

The SEC from ~ 2003 until 2012 had an argument that they were a superior conference overall to everyone. I don't think that is the case anymore.

Big12 was actually the toughest league in 2000-2003.

Since 2013, I really don't think there has been a "best" league. All of the leagues have 2-3 teams the rest are mediocre as RollTide94 stated. (I hate agreeing with a Bama fan).

The exception might be last year as I think the ACC had a strong argument for being the best/dominant league.

 

[Chewbaccer]

But guys, I think we're looking at this thread the wrong way.

Maybe Jim Harbaugh is doing a great job, and we're all being too hard on Butch Jones, who has done an equally great job over these last 11 games?

 

[bamabear82]

But guys, I think we're looking at this thread the wrong way.

Maybe Jim Harbaugh is doing a great job, and we're all being too hard on Butch Jones, who has done an equally great job over these last 11 games?

I agree. If anything Butch needs a raise and an extension.

 

[Chewbaccer]

I agree. If anything Butch needs a raise and an extension.

Now that I see how he stacks up against a great like Harbaugh, I don't see how anyone could disagree.

 

[bamabear82]

I kinda feel bad for comparing Harbs to "10 Win" Richt now.


Richt didn't deserve that.

 

[Chewbaccer]

I kinda feel bad for comparing Harbs to "10 Win" Richt now.


Richt didn't deserve that.

Richt did at least win the SEC a couple of times, and won the division a few other times.

 

[bamabear82]

Richt did at least win the SEC a couple of times, and won the division a few other times.

And was also a class guy. I was definitely in the wrong in many ways with that comparison.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

We need more than a QB, the biggest problem on this team is the O Line. We have not had a decent line the entire time Jim has been at Michigan. We have picked up a couple good Pocket Passers but we have to be able to create a pocket for them to play in.

That's true -- and that goes back to the recruiting during the Hoke era. He failed to recruit good offensive lineman for his entirety. While he did pull in some top five classes, they didn't include an overwhelming amount of OL like it did Dline. What we're seeing now is the scraps we have left, backed up by (and sometimes rotating in) kids from the past two classes. Playing sophomore offensive lineman is bad. It means there was a recruiting failure.

But ultimately, a competent QB could more than make up for a below average offensive line. Part of the problem there, the opposing defense simply isn't playing pass. They're playing run on every play and cheating. We don't have a QB who can make them pay for that.

 

[7Samurai13]

That's true -- and that goes back to the recruiting during the Hoke era. He failed to recruit good offensive lineman for his entirety. While he did pull in some top five classes, they didn't include an overwhelming amount of OL like it did Dline. What we're seeing now is the scraps we have left, backed up by (and sometimes rotating in) kids from the past two classes. Playing sophomore offensive lineman is bad. It means there was a recruiting failure.

But ultimately, a competent QB could more than make up for a below average offensive line. Part of the problem there, the opposing defense simply isn't playing pass. They're playing run on every play and cheating. We don't have a QB who can make them pay for that.

So you fired Rich Rod too soon because there was left with a hell of a lot less than what Hoke left for Harbaugh. Michigan fans crying poor is like an NFL player complaining about tipping a pizza delivery guy.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

So you fired Rich Rod too soon because there was left with a hell of a lot less than what Hoke left for Harbaugh. Michigan fans crying poor is like an NFL player complaining about tipping a pizza delivery guy.

We fired RR because he was a bad coach. Hoke left some good pieces for Harbaugh to win with, but he also failed to recruit some pretty important ones (like offensive line).

 

[7Samurai13]

We fired RR because he was a bad coach. Hoke left some good pieces for Harbaugh to win with, but he also failed to recruit some pretty important ones (like offensive line).

Which came could be said for nearly every single coach ever fired. Michigan is not special because Harbaugh didn't walk into a 10 straight years of top ten classes and sitting 3 deep at every position with 5 star NFL players. At a certain point it's on him and most program expect results. If you have to give Harbaugh 9 years before we can judge him, why was Rich Rod not given the same luxury? Lloyd Carr was pushed out for being a three loss coach. Over half of Harbaugh's losses he had a vastly superior team and was flat out out coached.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

Which came could be said for nearly every single coach ever fired. Michigan is not special because Harbaugh didn't walk into a 10 straight years of top ten classes and sitting 3 deep at every position with 5 star NFL players. At a certain point it's on him and most program expect results. If you have to give Harbaugh 9 years before we can judge him, why was Rich Rod not given the same luxury? Lloyd Carr was pushed out for being a three loss coach. Over half of Harbaugh's losses he had a vastly superior team and was flat out out coached.

Harbaugh won 10 games two times in a row to start his career here and even in a down year, has one of the nation's best defenses. That's why it's different.

Lloyd was pushed out after a decade and a consistent decline in play that culminated with one of the most embarrassing losses in CFB history.

As for the talent Harbaugh inherited, he won with it. The problem still being there were major holes. From that 2013 class that should have been seniors last year, or 5th years right now, it included a lot of guys who are no longer here or simply did not work out; especially on the offensive line.

Between the 2013 and 2014 classes there was a total of 4 offensive lineman that were still here when Harbaugh was hired (down from 8 that originally signed between the two classes). Harbaugh signed 3 more in 2015 in the 3 weeks he had, 2 low 3 star kids and 1 highly ranked OT in Newsome who went down with a serious leg injury last year and is still out. Of those from 2013, Kugler is the only one left as a 5th year. Which means this year Harbaugh basically has scraps to work with on the line, almost none of which was by any fault of his own.

2013:
Kugler ****
2014:
Mason Cole ****
Bushell-Beatty ***
2015:
Runyun Jr. ***
Ulizio ***

So for 5 offensive line spots, we have a total of 5 upperclassmen to fill those spots. That's bad. It's also why we're seeing very young guys rotated in. So yeah, I say give Harbaugh a chance to build a decent offensive line before we judge his ability to create an offense. If we get to 2019 and its' still this bad, then judge away. Until then, we're still trying to fix what Hoke broke and the only way to fix that is through time and recruiting.

 

[7Samurai13]

Harbaugh won 10 games two times in a row to start his career here and even in a down year, has one of the nation's best defenses. That's why it's different.

Lloyd was pushed out after a decade and a consistent decline in play that culminated with one of the most embarrassing losses in CFB history.

As for the talent Harbaugh inherited, he won with it. The problem still being there were major holes. From that 2013 class that should have been seniors last year, or 5th years right now, it included a lot of guys who are no longer here or simply did not work out; especially on the offensive line.

Between the 2013 and 2014 classes there was a total of 4 offensive lineman that were still here when Harbaugh was hired (down from 8 that originally signed between the two classes). Harbaugh signed 3 more in 2015 in the 3 weeks he had, 2 low 3 star kids and 1 highly ranked OT in Newsome who went down with a serious leg injury last year and is still out. Of those from 2013, Kugler is the only one left as a 5th year. Which means this year Harbaugh basically has scraps to work with on the line, almost none of which was by any fault of his own.

2013:
Kugler ****
2014:
Mason Cole ****
Bushell-Beatty ***
2015:
Runyun Jr. ***
Ulizio ***

So for 5 offensive line spots, we have a total of 5 upperclassmen to fill those spots. That's bad. It's also why we're seeing very young guys rotated in. So yeah, I say give Harbaugh a chance to build a decent offensive line before we judge his ability to create an offense. If we get to 2019 and its' still this bad, then judge away. Until then, we're still trying to fix what Hoke broke and the only way to fix that is through time and recruiting.

What coach was fired without serious holes on their team that was not fired for something that happened off the field? There is a reason why the previous was fired. No coach walks into a loaded at every position when the previous coach was fired. Most coaches aren't given a free pass on there third year because "there were serious holes". Michigan is not special.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

What coach was fired without serious holes on their team that was not fired for something that happened off the field? There is a reason why the previous was fired. No coach walks into a loaded at every position when the previous coach was fired. Most coaches aren't given a free pass on there third year because "there were serious holes". Michigan is not special.

Sure, which is why I'm fine with being patient -- like many schools are when they get a good coach. It also illustrates why the O-line is a major concern and many other positions are not. Harbaugh is a proven winner, has proven he can win at Michigan and won quickly enough to warrant being patient with this offense.

 

[Red_Alert]

MAIZEandBLEW without a doubt gets the biggest 'Apologist of the Year Award'.

 

[TexasExes98]

I agree. If anything Butch needs a raise and an extension.

Ferentz 2.0.....

 

[Used 2 B Hu]

But guys, I think we're looking at this thread the wrong way.

Maybe Jim Harbaugh is doing a great job, and we're all being too hard on Butch Jones, who has done an equally great job over these last 11 games?

Oh, absolutely, Butch should get his full 15 years to turn that program around. He basically just got started

 

[TexasExes98]

Harbaugh won 10 games two times in a row to start his career here and even in a down year, has one of the nation's best defenses. That's why it's different.

Lloyd was pushed out after a decade and a consistent decline in play that culminated with one of the most embarrassing losses in CFB history.

As for the talent Harbaugh inherited, he won with it. The problem still being there were major holes. From that 2013 class that should have been seniors last year, or 5th years right now, it included a lot of guys who are no longer here or simply did not work out; especially on the offensive line.

Between the 2013 and 2014 classes there was a total of 4 offensive lineman that were still here when Harbaugh was hired (down from 8 that originally signed between the two classes). Harbaugh signed 3 more in 2015 in the 3 weeks he had, 2 low 3 star kids and 1 highly ranked OT in Newsome who went down with a serious leg injury last year and is still out. Of those from 2013, Kugler is the only one left as a 5th year. Which means this year Harbaugh basically has scraps to work with on the line, almost none of which was by any fault of his own.

2013:
Kugler ****
2014:
Mason Cole ****
Bushell-Beatty ***
2015:
Runyun Jr. ***
Ulizio ***


So for 5 offensive line spots, we have a total of 5 upperclassmen to fill those spots. That's bad. It's also why we're seeing very young guys rotated in. So yeah, I say give Harbaugh a chance to build a decent offensive line before we judge his ability to create an offense. If we get to 2019 and its' still this bad, then judge away. Until then, we're still trying to fix what Hoke broke and the only way to fix that is through time and recruiting.

As a Longhorn alum, I'll take Harbaugh's success the last 2 seasons in a fucking heartbeat.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

As a Longhorn alum, I'll take Harbaugh's success the last 2 seasons in a fucking heartbeat.

I think fans of teams like Ohio State have unrealistic expectations about what a coach can and can't do in a few years. After two 10 win seasons and losing the most players to graduation and the NFL in program history, it's not unreasonable to have a down year. The fact that our down year includes one of the best defenses in college is pretty telling. This year is nothing like anything we experienced under the RR or Hoke years.

Sure, fans who hate Harbaugh or Michigan can laugh at the losses. But it's unrealistic to think that Harbaugh won't succeed here in the long term.