Browns are screwed

[Darrell Green Fan]

I have read the entire thread and Stymie's position makes no sense to me what so ever. Maybe Pierre is not a $9 million player but that's what happens when you sign a free agent, you will over pay a bit. But that's the only take of his that makes sense to me for the reasons already spelled out by others.

Cutting a player based on the team's record? Expecting similar production from another late round pick? Really?????

 

[Stymietee]

I have read the entire thread and Stymie's position makes no sense to me what so ever. Maybe Pierre is not a $9 million player but that's what happens when you sign a free agent, you will over pay a bit. But that's the only take of his that makes sense to me for the reasons already spelled out by others.

Cutting a player based on the team's record? Expecting similar production from another late round pick? Really?????

Then Johnny can't read!!!!! Show me where I said to cut a player based on a team's record. Then after chasing that to exhaustion, show me where I said that the team could expect similiar production from another late round pick. You really need to stop reading suppositions by others and attributing them to me.

 

[skinsdad62]

Then Johnny can't read!!!!! Show me where I said to cut a player based on a team's record. Then after chasing that to exhaustion, show me where I said that the team could expect similiar production from another late round pick. You really need to stop reading suppositions by others and attributing them to me.

" Hell, Pierre Garcon was a 6th round pick himself. If Indy can find a guy like that there is no reason to believe that Washington can not do the same thing."

correct me if i am wrong but you wrote that sty, so perhaps johnnny can read eh ? now for you english lit majors "same thing " refers back to 6th round pick in most english speaking countries

now did you say cut a player based on a teams record ? no but you sure tried to dance around that based on your line of questioning .

you said we had 7 wins with garcon in 2 years so why not get rid of him . the implication there is garcon is overpaid and at fault for it and his salary is keeping the team from getting players that could have changed that record .

roberts was signed to be a # 2 wr but we signed jackson which changed the plan believe me garcon / roberts combo is no where near a effective as a garcon /jackson one

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Thanks for saving me the trouble Dad. This is another post that I was referring to:

I believe that with or without him 3-13 is a real possibility, why prolong the agony? (I'll create a thread to gage how our posters feel about this)

That to me is basing a decision to retain or release a player based on the team's record. I don't see how that can be read any other way.

Sure we will probably stink next year. That's still no reason to get rid of one of the few productive players this team has signed. And as Shark has said repeatedly it won't even be much of a cap savings seeing as they will still need to fill that spot and HOPE that the player signed will be as productive as Pierre has been.

 

[Stymietee]

" Hell, Pierre Garcon was a 6th round pick himself. If Indy can find a guy like that there is no reason to believe that Washington can not do the same thing."

correct me if i am wrong but you wrote that sty, so perhaps johnnny can read eh ? now for you english lit majors "same thing " refers back to 6th round pick in most english speaking countries

now did you say cut a player based on a teams record ? no but you sure tried to dance around that based on your line of questioning .

you said we had 7 wins with garcon in 2 years so why not get rid of him . the implication there is garcon is overpaid and at fault for it and his salary is keeping the team from getting players that could have changed that record .

roberts was signed to be a # 2 wr but we signed jackson which changed the plan believe me garcon / roberts combo is no where near a effective as a garcon /jackson one

Geeez.....the glass half full/half empty thing all over again. You want to read it as a negative, I don't ! Just because you can't possibly find a way to even think that there coul ever be another 6th round pick that is as good as Garcon, doesn't mean that it cannot happen. In fact the odds are that there are going to be 6th round picks in future years far better than him. So in addition to Johnnys inability to read he can't (nor his representative) reason. Just to be clear, according to you and DGF, there will never another 6th round pick as good or better than Garcon.

This whole thing is about TRADING him, nowhere did I ever say nor imply cutting him. That Dad, was your assumption. Additionally, my response was aimed at your assertion that if you saw him you would thank him for his achievements, ( division win etc.) It is interesting that you choose to apparently give him credit for being an integral part in the teams successes, yet, not be willing to cast a light upon his contributions to the teams' shortcomings. BTW: he is overpaid.

I'm going to stick with this until you get it, this team is RIGHT NOW, in total rebuild mode....period! This upcoming season is already a washout, conventionally, meaning unless lightning strikes. To me, maybe not you nor DGF if I'm charged with the task of rebuilding a losing team into a winning one I would want to get that process started as soon as possible and not prolong the process by holding on to guys whose value brings me something towards that end now, but nothing later.

 

[Stymietee]

Thanks for saving me the trouble Dad. This is another post that I was referring to:



That to me is basing a decision to retain or release a player based on the team's record. I don't see how that can be read any other way.

Sure we will probably stink next year. That's still no reason to get rid of one of the few productive players this team has signed. And as Shark has said repeatedly it won't even be much of a cap savings seeing as they will still need to fill that spot and HOPE that the player signed will be as productive as Pierre has been.

Sure if you take what was written out of context, you can make anything that you desire of it. Why did I write it and more importantly what was it in response to? Figure that out and get back to me. So sad that some can't see the forest for the trees, but allow me to try to help you. Granted, Garcon is a productive player.... sometimes, the NFL is full of them! However, there is this little thing in the NFL called winning games. Generally, this is the bottom line. Every team has productive players, but if that production does not translate into wins what good is it? In fact, let me ask you this question...... how many times have you following a loss said, the loss doesn't matter, I'm just happy that Pierre Garcon was productive?

Interesting that you believe that the team will stink next year!!

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

The Patriots should have traded Tom Brady years ago because they could definitely find another top QB in the 6th round. That is what they should have done, for sure. I mean think of the haul they could have obtained for a player like that.

 

[skinsdad62]

Sure if you take what was written out of context, you can make anything that you desire of it. Why did I write it and more importantly what was it in response to? Figure that out and get back to me. So sad that some can't see the forest for the trees, but allow me to try to help you. Granted, Garcon is a productive player.... sometimes, the NFL is full of them! However, there is this little thing in the NFL called winning games. Generally, this is the bottom line. Every team has productive players, but if that production does not translate into wins what good is it? In fact, let me ask you this question...... how many times have you following a loss said, the loss doesn't matter, I'm just happy that Pierre Garcon was productive?

Interesting that you believe that the team will stink next year!!

nobody took anything "out of context " you wrote it not me . you were trying to say that since garcon was a 6th rounder and scotty was drafting players now that a late round pick could make up the production and we are saying you cant count on it . that "out of context " dodge may work with politicians but it wont fly with me

you wrote it , you believe it , now own it



and why do we blame garcon for losses ? that is what you are in essence doing . we are losing so let dump a productive player ? no stymie you keep a productive player and dump the unproductive one

and again you are assigning round about blame on garcon when qb play certainly contributed to our losses. defensive ineptitude did as well , as we as special teams failures

and perhaps DGF wasnt around the boards we frequented when garcon came to DC but the ones that do know you have been on garcon's case since he got here with that foolish number one wr debate

there is only one issue about trading garcon and its very simple . we wont find a partner who will take his salary and give us value in return . so that leaves cutting him and paying him to play for some one else with nothing in return is foolish

 

[skinsdad62]

Geeez.....the glass half full/half empty thing all over again. You want to read it as a negative, I don't ! Just because you can't possibly find a way to even think that there coul ever be another 6th round pick that is as good as Garcon, doesn't mean that it cannot happen. In fact the odds are that there are going to be 6th round picks in future years far better than him. So in addition to Johnnys inability to read he can't (nor his representative) reason. Just to be clear, according to you and DGF, there will never another 6th round pick as good or better than Garcon.

This whole thing is about TRADING him, nowhere did I ever say nor imply cutting him. That Dad, was your assumption. Additionally, my response was aimed at your assertion that if you saw him you would thank him for his achievements, ( division win etc.) It is interesting that you choose to apparently give him credit for being an integral part in the teams successes, yet, not be willing to cast a light upon his contributions to the teams' shortcomings. BTW: he is overpaid.

I'm going to stick with this until you get it, this team is RIGHT NOW, in total rebuild mode....period! This upcoming season is already a washout, conventionally, meaning unless lightning strikes. To me, maybe not you nor DGF if I'm charged with the task of rebuilding a losing team into a winning one I would want to get that process started as soon as possible and not prolong the process by holding on to guys whose value brings me something towards that end now, but nothing later.

ok stymie , the chance that a future 6th round pick will be is good as garcon are not very good . could it happen , sure sty, it can happen and you can hang on to davis brady morris until you meet your maker but the fact is most 6th rounders never start in the nfl and it has been that way since we started the draft in 1936

as for garcon , sure sty he has been a part of the teams losses but you seem to think that he is the sole reason . i am sorry by qb play bad defense , bad special teams play played a huge role in that record and we have a talent issue

we have jackson garcon reed morris williams robinson , kerrigan as the only real players we can count on as a corp . we are already in rebuild mode and i doubt keeping garcon will upset the REBUILD we are currently under .

if i put jackson numbers up and hid his name and based what he did on his salary the words overpaid will ring out

now garcon's 1st year we made the playoffs and he helped quite a bit

next year he caught 113 balls for over 1000 yds and you are telling me he isnt doing all he can to win ? i have to assign full blame to him ?

you build a team by gathering good football players not by trading them especially when you have like only 7 out of 53 . the team is already gutted

now for trading him . as i have said with garcon's salary what team is going to give us value for him ? its all fine and dandy to say" lets trade garcon , i am an internet GM genius " until you start looking at it and find out that we are going to give up a starting wr for a late round ash and trash pick and hope that player can be something

that leaves no alternative sty but to cut him . now if you dont see that then i cant help you

we will be out from under his contract in 2016 . then we will have his cap space

why not cut the lame hall and his 4 mil contract ? the same you would get for cutting garcon ?

or why not renegotiate his contract sty ? get a cap friendly deal in place ? why trade him for ash and trash ?

we have 7 or 8 (lets count the punter ) including garcon players to build a foundation around that leaves 46 players who need to improve or be replaced . we are in rebuild mode and have been for quite some time . where have you been ?

now if you think garcon is worth a late round ash and trash then by god you go girl . but pardon me if a snicker at you

 

[Stymietee]

The Patriots should have traded Tom Brady years ago because they could definitely find another top QB in the 6th round. That is what they should have done, for sure. I mean think of the haul they could have obtained for a player like that.

You do realize that you just compared Brady to Garcon don't you. Let me remind you that Brady is a 1st ballot HOF'er and Garcon......well you know the rest. I get it you see Garcon as some sort of Stub player. At some point you'll come to realize that many many others do not. In as much as getting value for him, that could never happen, because the value that you and to be fair others see in him Only applies to this team. Think about that for a moment, I know that it is difficult because of your views of him and that's ok, I respect your perspective, but Dad inadvertently stumbled upon the truth, he doesn't realize it but here it is. He asked me to name a team that would take on his contract, he knew that in all likelihood there currently would be no definitive answer because somewhere deep within him he knows like I do that he's both overpaid and overvalued here.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

You do realize that you just compared Brady to Garcon don't you. Let me remind you that Brady is a 1st ballot HOF'er and Garcon......well you know the rest. I get it you see Garcon as some sort of Stub player. At some point you'll come to realize that many many others do not. In as much as getting value for him, that could never happen, because the value that you and to be fair others see in him Only applies to this team. Think about that for a moment, I know that it is difficult because of your views of him and that's ok, I respect your perspective, but Dad inadvertently stumbled upon the truth, he doesn't realize it but here it is. He asked me to name a team that would take on his contract, he knew that in all likelihood there currently would be no definitive answer because somewhere deep within him he knows like I do that he's both overpaid and overvalued here.

You obviously missed my point so let me clarify. Expecting to find a WR as good or better than Garcon in the 6th round is the same ignorant philosophy that would say the same thing about finding another Tom Brady in the 6th. I was never comparing the players, just using Brady to illustrate how your logic is flawed. The odds of finding a 100 catch 1,300 yard receiver in the 6th round are off the charts. To say that our new GM should be expected to find that guy, when only 2% of all players selected in the 6th or 7th round have ever made the Pro Bowl, is quite honestly a really really stupid opinion. Most of us have agreed that he is a bit overpaid. But you still have not addressed Shark's illustration of how cutting Garcon and then finding his replacement will cost nearly as much cap space as retaining a very productive player. And of course there is absolutely no guarantee what so ever that the new player will be as productive. In fact the odds are against it.

As for the part in bold above your opinion here makes sense now that Dad has explained to me that you have had it out for Garcon from the minute he signed. How you can not see that he has been one of the few FAs who have actually worked out here is really really hard to understand.

 

[skinsdad62]

You do realize that you just compared Brady to Garcon don't you. Let me remind you that Brady is a 1st ballot HOF'er and Garcon......well you know the rest. I get it you see Garcon as some sort of Stub player. At some point you'll come to realize that many many others do not. In as much as getting value for him, that could never happen, because the value that you and to be fair others see in him Only applies to this team. Think about that for a moment, I know that it is difficult because of your views of him and that's ok, I respect your perspective, but Dad inadvertently stumbled upon the truth, he doesn't realize it but here it is. He asked me to name a team that would take on his contract, he knew that in all likelihood there currently would be no definitive answer because somewhere deep within him he knows like I do that he's both overpaid and overvalued here.

oh for the love of god i have said garcon is overpaid numerous times stymie . . you say we can trade him and i say no one wants to take the salary hence trading him is off the table

that is the got damn issue stymie you cant f/n trade him , you will have to cut him so why bring up a trade when you know damn well it aint going to happen ? and then argue a point that wont happen

so the question is now do you cut him ? i say no just keep him , pay the money we agreed to pay him and after 2016 his contract is off the books

or we can renegotiate with him to open up cap space which you havent even touched on . why ? because you hate garcon

 

[skinsdad62]

NFL Free Agency 100: Top 12 Wide Receivers | Bleacher Report

here is a list of FA wrs

i am having a hard time finding a better cheaper option in there .

 

[skinsdad62]

As for Pierre Garcon, I haven't talked to anyone about his value, to be honest. But I doubt it would be all that high. He has a big cap hit in 2015 ($9.7 million) and, though he's a good receiver, this is a good offseason to find one either by spending money or investing a draft pick. No need to give both money and a pick for one.

another guy , Kiem , thinks the same way i do . there is no value for trading garcon

 

[skinsdad62]

Redskins Offseason Questions: Receivers - Fanspeak Washington Redskins Blog

this guy thinks the same way i do as far as garcon is concerned

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Yeah the obvious move is to renegotiate Garcon. This lessons the cap hit and extends a very productive player who is still in his prime. Cutting or trading him makes zero sense to me.

Really hard to understand the hate. In 2012 he was literally the only playmaking WR on this team. Sty loves to blame Garcon for the team record, how about looking at the 2012 record with him in vs out of the lineup. That should end that idiotic discussion in it's tracks. They lost when he was hurt, he got back and it was a totally different team. He followed up that year by leading the entire NFL in receptions. His production only fell off last year because as we all know the QB situation was a clusterfuck.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Again - I am sure that this GM will most likely make the correct move in regards to Garcon. Moving forward it is very likely that popular players like him will be traded/cut/etc if it is in the best interest of the team. However - you guys make a good argument why this should not be the case in this situation. My major objection in regards to getting rid of Garcon is anyone stating that he is too old.

28 is not old for a WR. We are not talking about a RB. Check out many of the current leaders and top performers at this position both now & historically. Receivers can play effectively well into their 30s & there is no reason to be believe that Garcon cannot be a significant contributor for a very long time.

 

[BeaReylo]

I don't get the want to trade good players, especially since we have so few? When you get a good player 9 times out of 10 you keep him until his production falls off. Theres no guarantee whichever player drafted will be as good. The whole reason you want picks is to fill holes. Creating a hole to fix another us counter productive.

How long has it been since we've had a good WR? No we have a decent corp and people want to knick pick because they're not The Gretest Show on Turf. Receive isn't a problem. Lets leave well enough alone and straighten out actual needs, without selling the house to pay the mortage.