Game Thread: 03-31-15, Warriors @ Clips 7:30 pst

[GregWarriorsfan]

"That crossover Steph threw down on CP3 was a thing of beauty.... people are still talking about it...and will be for some time."

The Clipper fans were just oohing and ahing over anything that Curry did. In particular, on that double behind the back dribble that made CP3 stumble, it was like the Warriors were playing in Oracle. Yes, that move will be shown for some time and years from now when they're showing old footage of Curry, they'll definitely show that move. Curry's highlight reel will be overflowing with one incredible play after another. I think he is such a great passer, which is a skill that I value as much as shooting.

 

[Montalban]

B

"But he pointed out that that skill is not very valuable in the style of offense the Dubs now play. Clealry that is true since Green and Speights get the minutes Lee used to get."

Again, then why do the Warriors post up Shaun Livingston a lot during the games? If Lee played, he'd score around the basket all the time. His ability to use either hand around the basket now seems to be taken for granted. If Green gets hurt or if they choose to play Lee more, they'll use the abilities he has to enhance the Warriors chances of winning. He's not going to start jacking up 3-pointers just because that's a big part of the Warriors game. He'll do "David Lee", which is not too shabby other than his defense. Lee's lack of defense does not negate the offensive and rebounding attributes that he has.

Speights also gets more minutes because of his ability to shoot the ball from 15-20 feet. I was hoping that Lee would work on his outside shot this year, and he actually has. But, his huge drop in playing time hasn't allowed anyone to see if he's progressed much. I suppose in practice he's not been too impressive with his outside shot.

The real reason why the Warriors aren't playing him much is more so related to his age and his big contract. They've decided that he's not going to be in their future plans.

Because Livingston has a matchup advantage on every guard who covers him. The same cannot be said for Lee. I don't think the Livingston posting up is as big a part of the Warrior offense as you seem to think it is though. Its a nice piec but never the first optin. More like 3rd or 4th.

I feel bad for Lee as well and I like his game, but watching the Clips game it is clear that the Dubs are a far superior team with Green in there than with Lee.

 

[Montalban]

"I was pointing out that David's interior scoring is not a plus for him when it comes to trying to get minutes in our offense. In addition Lee's defensive rebounding is not a plus either for him in getting minutes. Green is no slouch either with 8 rebounds a game."

So, are you backtracking on your comment which read ""Draymond is superior to everything David can contribute to this team. There's simply no denying that"?

You didn't sound all that confident about that rebounding stat. Also, whatever PER is, Lee's is higher. he's 5th best, Green is 6th best. They are even in FT shooting, but Lee's would likely be higher with more playing time.

Listen, I love Draymond Green. He's probably my second favorite Warrior to Curry. I could go on and on about things he contributes to the team. I just think your comment was a bit strong in comparing the two players. I don't know of any other Warrior who is "superior to everything" as compared to another Warrior player. As good as Curry and Thompson are, neither is better "at everything" then any of the other Warrior players. I understand that the "can contribute to this team" concept changes the argument up a bit because of the Dubs' style of play, but I also believe in allowing a player to use his strengths when he's in the game....just as the Warriors change their style of game for Livingston so that he can post up.

"This is worlds different than a 6'9" David Lee trying to post up other like-sized power forwards."

Except that Lee is a better post-up player than Livingston. The stats throughout the years bear this out. Most players do not have the array of moves that Lee has, nor the ambidextrous skills of Lee. That makes the match-ups favor Lee more so. He also draws more fouls on his post-up moves because the defense doesn't know which way he's going to go. Lee also leads Livingston in FG%, .519 to .500, and he's not shooting outside shots to get that .519 either.

I'm ready to drop it if you are. I'm hungry.

And well you should because he is right and you are wrong on this one........................in my opinion

 

[Montalban]

This is what I was exactly saying. See Below.





I appreciate everything David has done for us in the past, but he's simply not playing because he's not effective in the Warriors style of play, both offensively and defensively. Saying that he's not getting any run because of his age and contract is simply not true. If anything, the Warriors would want to showcase David Lee in order to move him in the off season. Not playing him reduces his value and diminishes the return the Warriors can get for him.

I was pointing out that David's interior scoring is not a plus for him when it comes to trying to get minutes in our offense. In addition Lee's defensive rebounding is not a plus either for him in getting minutes. Green is no slouch either with 8 rebounds a game.

What I'm saying is that according to the principles, both offensively and defensively, there's no point in playing David. Offensively, the Warriors don't utilize any iso-posts, with the rare exception of Shaun Livingston. Lee does not offer what the Warriors need. The Warriors use a motion based offensive system. This is exactly why the Warriors are one of the top teams in the league in points in the paint, because they don't need an isolation post player to command a double team. Lee is a good passer, but Draymond is better. Lee is better in the post, but it doesn't compare to Draymond's ability to stretch the floor. Draymond can push the ball in transition. Defensively, it's not even close. Draymond's job on defense is do everything from guard centers to point guards. David Lee has trouble guarding anyone.

I don't want to make this about Dray vs. Lee, because realistically, it's not even close.

Let's compare Lee vs. Speights. Lee doesn't get minutes over Speights because again, what Speights does for this team, there's nothing that Lee does that is superior to what is needed from Speights. He plays over Lee because of his ability to space the floor with the second unit. When Livingston heads in the post, you need another big to be able to stretch out the defense, otherwise the posting of Livingston would be redundant.

The Warriors post Shaun Livingston because he's a 6'7" point guard, guarded by the other teams PG's who are usually at least a good 4 inches shorter than him, if not more. They post Shaun because he's got tremendous vision and his ability to pass is excellent. If the opposition doubles, Shaun easily can kick the pass out and hit the open man. If they don't, Shaun is simply big enough to just turn around and shoot over the shorter guards. This is worlds different than a 6'9" David Lee trying to post up other like-sized power forwards.

You hit the nail dead on the head.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

No, I'm not wrong on the issue of Green being better at everything than Lee. Free throws, PER, rebounding and interior scoring. If any of these 4 issues is correct, then Green isn't better than Lee in EVERYTHING.

 

[CitySushi]

No, I'm not wrong on the issue of Green being better at everything than Lee. Free throws, PER, rebounding and interior scoring. If any of these 4 issues is correct, then Green isn't better than Lee in EVERYTHING.

Hi Greg,

I have a distinct feeling, that you missed the point of my message. You seemed to have skimmed the message and focused on the numbers rather than my actual point. Draymond Green is better at everything Lee does, that is IMPORTANT to the Warriors and how they play.

Again, I can't emphasize enough, Lee is not a bad player. I'm not ragging on him. I'm not saying he's worthless. What I'm saying is that he cannot get minutes on this team, because what he does offer is NOT a plus in terms of what his skill set brings to the team.

Here is where we're not seeing eye to eye:

1) Draymond Green is not superior to David Lee in every aspect of a basketball skill set. That's where the interpretation or maybe my lack of wording came across. Draymond is superior to David Lee in everything they can both offer the team at this current time. This is not to be confused with overall skill. David Lee is a better interior scorer than Green. You're absolutely right. But is that important to this team and how they play? Absolutely not. I've addressed other portions of Lee's game below.

2) My illustration of Draymond Green's rebounds per game at 8, was to show that while David may average 9 rebounds a game in similar amount of minutes, it's not an overall plus for David. And what I mean by that is that the other aspects of what Draymond does out side of the rebounds far superceed the importance of a single additional rebound per game. In addition, the rebounding numbers are skewed because of the Warriors system in switching. Many times, Draymond is switched out on perimeter players and not in a position to rebound the ball. In our defense, it is more important for Draymond to be able to switch on Westbrook, Chris Paul, etc, rather than simply rim run for an extra rebound. When Lee is out there, the Warriors cannot switch, meaning that he plays behind the ball and is in a better rebounding position. When they're not able to switch, this HURTS the defense the Warriors play.

3) Likewise, if you want to compare Draymond's points per game to David, again, David's scoring is not a plus. When you average 19 points a game and give up 26 a night, that's not a plus. Fun fact for stats: In the two games Draymond Green guarded Blake Griffin this season, he averaged 16 points a game. In the one game David Lee started (had a solid scoring night of 17 points and 7 rebounds) and played 30 minutes against Blake, Griffin scored 40.

4) The offensive system the Warriors run is a motion based offense, with an emphasis on transition. It places less emphasis on individual scoring and more on team movement and ball movement. This is why Lee's interior scoring is also again not a plus in getting him on the court. The emphasis of the offense is passing, cutting, good screens and stretching the floor. All of these things Draymond is superior to David Lee.

5) The defensive system the Warriors run includes not only individual and help defense, but includes a lot switching. Draymond can guard anyone from the center to the point guard. Draymond blocks shots at a crazy rate for someone his size. Really Draymond is superior to David, here so there's not much else to repeat.


I wasn't trying to turn this into a Draymond vs. Lee debate, because really it's not close. What I was trying to bring to light is that David is not a bad player, however his lack of minutes is not because of some subplot by the Warriors to sabotage him as you indicated. David skill set, AT THIS POINT, is not what the Warriors need.

Could David be important in a series against the Grizzlies/Spurs? Absolutely. But he shouldn't be viewed as an important cog to make this team go. He should be viewed as a great backup option to the Warriors primary plan and style of play.

Really this whole argument should not be Draymond vs. Lee. It should be Draymond vs. Speights. And even in that debate, Speights still would win.

 

[CitySushi]

By the way, I appreciate the convo Greg. First time in a while I've had something to talk about the Warriors.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

Quote from CSushi:

"I wasn't trying to turn this into a Draymond vs. Lee debate, because really it's not close. What I was trying to bring to light is that David is not a bad player, however his lack of minutes is not because of some subplot by the Warriors to sabotage him as you indicated."

CS, below was my only comment about the Dubs and Lee's PT:

"The real reason why the Warriors aren't playing him much is more so related to his age and his big contract. They've decided that he's not going to be in their future plans."

My statement absolutely did not say that the Dubs were trying to sabotage Lee.

I understand that when you want to unload a pricey free agent that you "showcase" him by playing him a lot hoping that other teams will say "hey, this guy is really playing good. Maybe we can pick him up if the Warriors want to unload him." But, I think you can see that from my statement above that I was not indicating that the Warriors were trying to sabotage Lee's future.

I've got to sleep some now. Didn't get enough sleep last night. I'll read your novel (I write them too) a little later on.

BTW, I also enjoy the discussions that are sometimes a bit argumentative. It's more interesting when people disagree.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

Do we still have the ability to edit our posts within 5 minutes? I don't see the word "edit" anywhere.

 

[Montalban]

No, I'm not wrong on the issue of Green being better at everything than Lee. Free throws, PER, rebounding and interior scoring. If any of these 4 issues is correct, then Green isn't better than Lee in EVERYTHING.

He may not be better at everything, but everything that the Warriors need from that position, Green does better.

Lee can play, but watching him in isolation while the rest of the team stands around is not the game Kerr wants to play. Lee would be a good fit in Memphis but he is not here.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

Yeah, I've never disagreed with any of this.

 

[CitySushi]

He may not be better at everything, but everything that the Warriors need from that position, Green does better.

Lee can play, but watching him in isolation while the rest of the team stands around is not the game Kerr wants to play. Lee would be a good fit in Memphis but he is not here.

This is what I was trying to convey the first time. I think I should have you review and condense all future posts from me.

The length of my posts just were mainly to illustrate that...ok I'll stop.

 

[Montalban]

This is what I was trying to convey the first time. I think I should have you review and condense all future posts from me.


I disagree. Your explanation of how Green's game fits what the Warriors need and Lee's does not, was perfectly illustrated in your post. You could not have been more spot on. I really did not see it that clearly until I watched the Clipper game. It really stood out to me why Kerr is doing what he's doing with Lee. There is no lack of respect its just that there is no way to seamlessly fit Lee into the game Kerr wants to play. Its a shame, but that's the way it is.

 

[Montalban]

Do we still have the ability to edit our posts within 5 minutes? I don't see the word "edit" anywhere.

Yes. Use the pencil icon at the lower left hand corner of your post.

 

[GregWarriorsfan]

Thanks.