TO misses the HOF again

[soxfan1468927]

Torry Holt is borderline to ever get into the HoF.

Torry Holt went to 7 ProBowls,
Terrell Owens went to 6 proBowls.

Torry Holt led the league in receiving yardage 2 times.
Terrell Owens led the league in receiving yardage 0 times.

Torry Holt is on the 2000s All-Decade team.
Terrell Owens is on the 2000's All-Decade 2nd team.

I have Owens above Holt but we can all play the stats & awards game. I also have Sterling Sharpe above Owens and Sharpe still isn't in. Owens will get in before Sharpe or Holt but I won't lose sleep at his having to wait.

TO was 1st Team All-Pro 5 times
Holt was 1st Team All-Pro once

TO led the league in receiving TDs 3 times, and was top five 8 times
Holt never led the league and was never in the top 5

Holt is also on the 2000s All-Decade 2nd team. First team was Harrison and Moss. And that's with Owens being 3 years older than Holt when the decade started.

And Sharpe played in just 7 seasons. Even if you take out Owens FIRST 7 seasons and just count the last 113 games he played in (since Sharpe played in 112), he had more yards and receptions as a 30-37 year old than Sharpe did as a 23-29 year old.

 

[Thruthefog]

What a damn joke

It doesn't mean anything anymore. Jerry Jones got in. Might as well let that locker room poison in too.

 

[fastforward]

TO was 1st Team All-Pro 5 times
Holt was 1st Team All-Pro once

TO led the league in receiving TDs 3 times, and was top five 8 times
Holt never led the league and was never in the top 5

Holt is also on the 2000s All-Decade 2nd team. First team was Harrison and Moss. And that's with Owens being 3 years older than Holt when the decade started.

And Sharpe played in just 7 seasons. Even if you take out Owens FIRST 7 seasons and just count the last 113 games he played in (since Sharpe played in 112), he had more yards and receptions as a 30-37 year old than Sharpe did as a 23-29 year old.

Kinda why I, (and everyone else), has Owens above Holt. The point was anyone can quote stats and awards to make a case. For what it's worth, since you brought it up, Owens had 512 receptions in his 1st 7 years and 486 in his last 7 years. Sharpe had 592. The NFL became more of a passing league through the 1990s and 2000s. Other than that i'm not getting into a pissing match over stats.
The NFL sets the the HoF bar at 7 years, so that's what it should go by. Sharpe should be in. For my money he was a better player than Owens or Moss. Owens should get in and so should Moss.

 

[Hank Kingsley]

Amen.

Considering TO's stats at least double Pearson's, I respectfully submit that TO is MUCH MORE worthy.

And I am/was a huge Pearson mark.

When TO came to Dallas I was 100% in favour of it.

Pearson was very good, but TO was better, by quite a bit.

I could give a fuck about "locker room cancer". He produced.

The one thing he did that I would consider "bad" is drops. He seemed to drop a lot of passes.

But catching 1,000 of them should be enough to be in the silly hall of fame.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Kinda why I, (and everyone else), has Owens above Holt. The point was anyone can quote stats and awards to make a case. For what it's worth, since you brought it up, Owens had 512 receptions in his 1st 7 years and 486 in his last 7 years. Sharpe had 592. The NFL became more of a passing league through the 1990s and 2000s. Other than that i'm not getting into a pissing match over stats.
The NFL sets the the HoF bar at 7 years, so that's what it should go by. Sharpe should be in. For my money he was a better player than Owens or Moss. Owens should get in and so should Moss.

Sure anyone can post stats and awards. But you should make sure your facts are correct before posting them. Such as the claim that Holt was 1st Team All-Decade.

Let's not exaggerate the difference in passing games for Sharpe's career and Owens. In Sharpe's career, teams averaged 17.87 completions per game. In Owens career they averaged 18.79. Teams averaged 201.04 passing yards per game in Sharpe's career, averaged 209.14 per game in Owens career. On a per game basis, Owens averaged more yards and TDs, Sharpe had more receptions. But Owens played in almost double the games Sharpe did. Sorry, it isn't close. Take Sharpe, and add another 7 years of that exact production on top of his career, and you get Owens.

I'm not sure what you mean by "The NFL sets the HOF bar at 7 years". Name one WR in the HOF who only played 7 years.

 

[fastforward]

Sure anyone can post stats and awards. But you should make sure your facts are correct before posting them. Such as the claim that Holt was 1st Team All-Decade.

Let's not exaggerate the difference in passing games for Sharpe's career and Owens. In Sharpe's career, teams averaged 17.87 completions per game. In Owens career they averaged 18.79. Teams averaged 201.04 passing yards per game in Sharpe's career, averaged 209.14 per game in Owens career. On a per game basis, Owens averaged more yards and TDs, Sharpe had more receptions. But Owens played in almost double the games Sharpe did. Sorry, it isn't close. Take Sharpe, and add another 7 years of that exact production on top of his career, and you get Owens.

I'm not sure what you mean by "The NFL sets the HOF bar at 7 years". Name one WR in the HOF who only played 7 years.

I originally did a quick scan of their careers on Wikipedia before I posted. Sorry that wasn't good enough for you.

wikipedia.org/wiki/Torry_Holt

wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrell_Owens

The point about 7 years was pretty straight forward. The minimum limit for HoF eligibility is 7 years as an NFL player. Sharpe did more in 7 years on some really poor Packers teams than any almost NFL player I could think of, and i'm no fan of the Packers. If he can't get in with what he did then the eligibility isn't 7 years. If the NFL wants a Hall of Longevity then they can set the bar at 10 years, 12 years, or whatever they want. If the criteria is 7 years then Sharpe should be in before Owens or Moss, because he was better than them.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I originally did a quick scan of their careers on Wikipedia before I posted. Sorry that wasn't good enough for you.

wikipedia.org/wiki/Torry_Holt

wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrell_Owens

The point about 7 years was pretty straight forward. The minimum limit for HoF eligibility is 7 years as an NFL player. Sharpe did more in 7 years on some really poor Packers teams than any almost NFL player I could think of, and i'm no fan of the Packers. If he can't get in with what he did then the eligibility isn't 7 years. If the NFL wants a Hall of Longevity then they can set the bar at 10 years, 12 years, or whatever they want. If the criteria is 7 years then Sharpe should be in before Owens or Moss, because he was better than them.

Where are you getting this idea that there is a minimum playing time in order to be HOF eligible?

 

[fastforward]

Where are you getting this idea that there is a minimum playing time in order to be HOF eligible?

Only the 5 years of playing/coaching inactivity requirement remains. Thank you for correcting my mistake.

 

[PDay8810]

Considering TO's stats at least double Pearson's, I respectfully submit that TO is MUCH MORE worthy.

And I am/was a huge Pearson mark.

When TO came to Dallas I was 100% in favour of it.

Pearson was very good, but TO was better, by quite a bit.

I could give a fuck about "locker room cancer". He produced.

The one thing he did that I would consider "bad" is drops. He seemed to drop a lot of passes.

But catching 1,000 of them should be enough to be in the silly hall of fame.

Everything you posted is true with regards to stats
BUT
Owens numbers wouldn't be what they are IF he had played in Drew's era. Good teams back then threw the ball 20/25 times a game while in Owens era, those type numbers were in the first half alone.

I still maintain, if Swann & Stallworth got in, there is a place for Drew Pearson.

Bottom line....Owens will get in at some point. I have no issue that he waits a few years. It remains a team sport for the teams that win and Owens was anything but team.

 

[Hank Kingsley]

Everything you posted is true with regards to stats
BUT
Owens numbers wouldn't be what they are IF he had played in Drew's era. Good teams back then threw the ball 20/25 times a game while in Owens era, those type numbers were in the first half alone.

I still maintain, if Swann & Stallworth got in, there is a place for Drew Pearson.

Bottom line....Owens will get in at some point. I have no issue that he waits a few years. It remains a team sport for the teams that win and Owens was anything but team.

Never said Pearson didn't belong.

And I have used the "statistics are for losers" angle myself.

But TO was a pretty special player in my opinion.

 

[soxfan1468927]

Everything you posted is true with regards to stats
BUT
Owens numbers wouldn't be what they are IF he had played in Drew's era. Good teams back then threw the ball 20/25 times a game while in Owens era, those type numbers were in the first half alone.

I still maintain, if Swann & Stallworth got in, there is a place for Drew Pearson.

Bottom line....Owens will get in at some point. I have no issue that he waits a few years. It remains a team sport for the teams that win and Owens was anything but team.

From 1973-1983, teams averaged 28.19 pass attempts per game. From 1996-2010, teams averaged 32.82 pass attempts per game. So that's an exaggeration.

 

[PDay8810]

From 1973-1983, teams averaged 28.19 pass attempts per game. From 1996-2010, teams averaged 32.82 pass attempts per game. So that's an exaggeration.

I said good teams....not a league average. Teams behind multiple scores will inflate the point.
Staubach played 10 seasons and threw 2958 passes (average of 14 game seasons) = 21 passes per game
Bradshaw played 14 seasons and threw 3901 passes (average of 14 game seasons) = 20 passes per game
Stabler played 15 seasons and threw 3793 passes (average of 14 game seasons) = 18 passes per game

some season these guys played fewer games than 14 and some seasons they played 16 game schedule.

Favre played 20 seasons and threw 10,169 passes (average 16 game schedule) = 32 passes per game

 

[soxfan1468927]

I said good teams....not a league average. Teams behind multiple scores will inflate the point.
Staubach played 10 seasons and threw 2958 passes (average of 14 game seasons) = 21 passes per game
Bradshaw played 14 seasons and threw 3901 passes (average of 14 game seasons) = 20 passes per game
Stabler played 15 seasons and threw 3793 passes (average of 14 game seasons) = 18 passes per game

some season these guys played fewer games than 14 and some seasons they played 16 game schedule.

Favre played 20 seasons and threw 10,169 passes (average 16 game schedule) = 32 passes per game

That's some fuzzy math. Staubach started 3 or fewer games in 10 seasons.

Cowboys from 1973-1983 (Drew Pearson years) the Cowboys threw MORE than the league average. 28.28 passes per game.

 

[soxfan1468927]

That's some fuzzy math. Staubach started 3 or fewer games in 10 seasons.

Cowboys from 1973-1983 (Drew Pearson years) the Cowboys threw MORE than the league average. 28.28 passes per game.

Meant to say he started 3 or fewer in 3 seasons.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I said good teams....not a league average. Teams behind multiple scores will inflate the point.
Staubach played 10 seasons and threw 2958 passes (average of 14 game seasons) = 21 passes per game
Bradshaw played 14 seasons and threw 3901 passes (average of 14 game seasons) = 20 passes per game
Stabler played 15 seasons and threw 3793 passes (average of 14 game seasons) = 18 passes per game

some season these guys played fewer games than 14 and some seasons they played 16 game schedule.

Favre played 20 seasons and threw 10,169 passes (average 16 game schedule) = 32 passes per game

And more fuzzy math. Bradshaw "played in 14 seasons at 14 game seasons on average". That puts him at 196, which isn't his actual number. He started 158 and averaged 24.7 per game. The Steelers from 1973-1983 averaged 26.11 pass attempts per game.

Stabler "played 15 seasons", he started 1 or 0 games in 4 of those years. At 15 seasons and 14 games a season average, that's 210 games when he actually started 146. Raiders from 1973-1983 averaged 27.93 pass attempts per season.

But why not just compare the teams that Pearson and Owens played on?

Cowboys from 1973-1983 averaged 28.28 attempts per game for when Pearson was there

49ers from 1996-2003, Eagles from 2004-2005, Cowboys from 2006-2008, Bills in 2009, and Bengals in 2010, averaged 33.66 attempts per game.

So Owen's teams averaged 19% more pass attempts than Pearson's teams. But Owens had 57% more receptions per game, 45% more yards per game, and 127% more TDs per game. And that's with 63 more games played for Owens.

So like I said, it's an exaggeration to say that teams averaged 20-25 attempts back in Pearson's era and average that per half in the Owens era.

 

[PDay8810]

Meant to say he started 3 or fewer in 3 seasons.

fine but my point was good teams threw 20 to 25 times a game (25 is more accurate after looking at the stats) AND the games were longer then when clocks stopped on out of bounds plays and time resumed at the next snap ( more plays per game)

as you said...73-83 the league averaged 28.19 passes and Dallas threw the ball 28.26 times per game. Yes that's more than the average by .07 and you're splitting hairs.

I'll stay with my opinion the ball was in the air less back when Pearson played (5 to 6 times per game at 16 games is 88 more passes per season) and the games back in Pearson's day had more plays per game.

I don't know dude.....you went a long ways to discredit my point and in the end, you really didn't. I think you're splitting hairs for no other reason than to defend Owens accomplishments and discredit Pearson's.

My point remains Drew Pearson belongs in the HOF and his stats were in line with others from that era who are in. I also said Owens deserves to be in, but being the team killer he was, I think he should wait for his enshrinement.

 

[PDay8810]

But why not just compare the teams that Pearson and Owens played on?

Cowboys from 1973-1983 averaged 28.28 attempts per game for when Pearson was there

49ers from 1996-2003, Eagles from 2004-2005, Cowboys from 2006-2008, Bills in 2009, and Bengals in 2010, averaged 33.66 attempts per game.

So Owen's teams averaged 19% more pass attempts than Pearson's teams. But Owens had 57% more receptions per game, 45% more yards per game, and 127% more TDs per game. And that's with 63 more games played for Owens.

So like I said, it's an exaggeration to say that teams averaged 20-25 attempts back in Pearson's era and average that per half in the Owens era.

yes...off the top of my head I exaggerated by 3.5 passes per game in Pearson's day and I didn't think someone would take me literally that I was implying teams threw the ball 50 plus times every single game when Owens played. Guess I was wrong. I suppose reference sites can be golden for a football opinion

I remain good with the opinion I stated, certainly when you consider more plays per game in the old days. I have no problem with Owens getting in in time, as he will...in time.
I just think Pearson belongs as well.... and he's waited a helleva long time

 

[soxfan1468927]

fine but my point was good teams threw 20 to 25 times a game (25 is more accurate after looking at the stats) AND the games were longer then when clocks stopped on out of bounds plays and time resumed at the next snap ( more plays per game)

as you said...73-83 the league averaged 28.19 passes and Dallas threw the ball 28.26 times per game. Yes that's more than the average by .07 and you're splitting hairs.

I'll stay with my opinion the ball was in the air less back when Pearson played (5 to 6 times per game at 16 games is 88 more passes per season) and the games back in Pearson's day had more plays per game.

I don't know dude.....you went a long ways to discredit my point and in the end, you really didn't. I think you're splitting hairs for no other reason than to defend Owens accomplishments and discredit Pearson's.

My point remains Drew Pearson belongs in the HOF and his stats were in line with others from that era who are in. I also said Owens deserves to be in, but being the team killer he was, I think he should wait for his enshrinement.

I have no reason to defend Owens or discredit Pearson. I'm calling you out on trying to make a point by exaggerating. And the reason I brought up that the Cowboys threw more than the average team, is because you said you weren't talking about the average team, but the good teams. Well since the Cowboys were above average, that point is moot.

You stated an exaggeration. I called you out on it. You tried to get around it using poor math with the likes of Staubach, Stabler, and Bradshaw. I called you out on it. Nothing I did was an attempt to discredit either player. I care way more about the BBHOF than the Football one anyway.