Have To Say ....

[SF11704]

I absolutely dispise what the fack'n Doyers did. I've always hated the idea that teams with unlimited cash could come very close to buying a playoff position. Just find it amazing that a team in financial straits, bailed out by MLB winds up assuming 263M in player salary. The Bosox are allowed to dismantle their team to gain financial relief. I could swear that Finley (How ever you spell it) had trades bocked because it wasn't in baseball's best interest. Don't see any difference here. With the WC so close this year ... I see WAS and CIN locking the divisions ... that leaves the two WC to ATL or STL or PITT and either LA or us. Really hate the idea that with 35 games left they overhaul the entire fack'n team. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if they hadn't already taken in HanRam and Choate. I guess I intellectually understand it .... but emotionally .... if SUCKS!!!!!!

 

[ColinCoby]

I hear ya. Even with the Giants playing well in Melky's absence, all of this is hard to accept. In fact, if we were to conclude after the season the Giants fell short in large part to Melk's suspension, that would be easier to deal with than losing because Doyers bought the NL West title.

I enjoyed reading the A-Gon thread (I've been away for several days and missed all the commentary on here). My take: the Dodgers maxed out daddy's American Express card, and luckily for them, daddy won't find out until the bill comes in. In the meantime, life is good in La La land. I'd be pretty shocked if The Giants beat them out this year. A-Gon? Really? Wow.

My only hope is the Giants continue to play well and stay in the NL West/Wild Card race until the final weekend. I think they're more than capable of doing so.

 

[filosofy29]

Doggies lose 10-0. All is right for 1 night.

 

[ColinCoby]

Doggies lose 10-0. All is right for 1 night.

Ya beat me to it.

Doyers batted 4-30 against Jeff Francis and a bunch of Rockie relievers I've never heard of.

Kemp, Hanley, AGon, and Eithier were a combined 1-14.

 

[Robotech]

I hear ya. Even with the Giants playing well in Melky's absence, all of this is hard to accept. In fact, if we were to conclude after the season the Giants fell short in large part to Melk's suspension, that would be easier to deal with than losing because Doyers bought the NL West title.

I enjoyed reading the A-Gon thread (I've been away for several days and missed all the commentary on here). My take: the Dodgers maxed out daddy's American Express card, and luckily for them, daddy won't find out until the bill comes in. In the meantime, life is good in La La land. I'd be pretty shocked if The Giants beat them out this year. A-Gon? Really? Wow.

My only hope is the Giants continue to play well and stay in the NL West/Wild Card race until the final weekend. I think they're more than capable of doing so.

We're in a better position than you might think. Our schedule is much easier than the Dodgers' schedule. Also, our starting pitching is much better than the Dodgers even with the unpredictability of Timmy and Zeets.

 

[msgkings322]

We're in a better position than you might think. Our schedule is much easier than the Dodgers' schedule. Also, our starting pitching is much better than the Dodgers even with the unpredictability of Timmy and Zeets.

Because of the latter, the former isn't really true. Our starters are somewhat better 1-5 but not 'much'. This year I mean...for example I'm counting Capuano as a good pitcher even though up to this year he wasn't really.

 

[msgkings322]

I absolutely dispise what the fack'n Doyers did. I've always hated the idea that teams with unlimited cash could come very close to buying a playoff position. Just find it amazing that a team in financial straits, bailed out by MLB winds up assuming 263M in player salary. The Bosox are allowed to dismantle their team to gain financial relief. I could swear that Finley (How ever you spell it) had trades bocked because it wasn't in baseball's best interest. Don't see any difference here. With the WC so close this year ... I see WAS and CIN locking the divisions ... that leaves the two WC to ATL or STL or PITT and either LA or us. Really hate the idea that with 35 games left they overhaul the entire fack'n team. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if they hadn't already taken in HanRam and Choate. I guess I intellectually understand it .... but emotionally .... if SUCKS!!!!!!

That's the game I guess. If SF got weird and decided to do the same thing we'd probably love it.

 

[Heathbar012]

We're in a better position than you might think. Our schedule is much easier than the Dodgers' schedule. Also, our starting pitching is much better than the Dodgers even with the unpredictability of Timmy and Zeets.

Don't forget the bullpen! Brandon League and Randy Choate would barely get innings in FYWW.

 

[msgkings322]

Don't forget the bullpen! Brandon League and Randy Choate would barely get innings in FYWW.

Actually if I'm not mistaken LA has a stellar bullpen and ours hasn't been the FYWW of old. I'd call it a wash.

 

[Heathbar012]

That's the game I guess. If SF got weird and decided to do the same thing we'd probably love it.

Well, yeah. The whole "not my money" fan chatter. Whatever. I'm actually really proud to root for a franchise that understands budgets, prospects, debts, sunk costs and the future. No fan is going to say that they don't want Adrian Gonzalez on their favorite team, but I think its even money that these trades blow up in their face, and everything that the Giants' organization is currently doing projects to a much better decade. Since, I know we're not going anywhere, we can enjoy this 3-game NL West lead for as long as it lasts and until the next one.

 

[Heathbar012]

Actually if I'm not mistaken LA has a stellar bullpen and ours hasn't been the FYWW of old. I'd call it a wash.

I disagree. (WHIP)

Lopez (1.48) v. Choate (1.10) - straight LOOGY skills, I still take Lopez, despite the increase in walks this season
Romo (0.94) v. League (1.33) - Romo, self-explanatory, a few hanging sliders do not change what Romo is capable of
Affeldt (1.33) v. Jansen (0.88) - Jansen, though Affeldt has gotten some great saves, hopefully Jansen wilts in the August heat
Casilla (1.25) v. Guerra (1.50) - Casilla, he may have flamed out as a true closer, but he is still a better bullpen option than most of the Dodgers staff
Kontos (1.09) v. Belisario (1.01) - Belisario, but this one is pretty close to a push considering they both rarely appear in high-leverage situations and have such similar numbers
Hensley (1.54) v. Wright (1.62) - Hensley. It's easy to hate this guy for being put into situations that he was never expected to handle, but the bottom line is he has eaten a lot of innings for this team and saved the rotation some stress. I doubt the same can be said of Jamey Wright.

 

[Heathbar012]

Well, yeah. The whole "not my money" fan chatter. Whatever. I'm actually really proud to root for a franchise that understands budgets, prospects, debts, sunk costs and the future. No fan is going to say that they don't want Adrian Gonzalez on their favorite team, but I think it's even money that these trades blow up in their face, and everything that the Giants' organization is currently doing projects to a much better decade. Since, I know we're not going anywhere, we can enjoy this 3-game NL West lead for as long as it lasts and until the next one.

Wow. Forgot the apostrophe. I haven't made that mistake since high school. :third:

 

[msgkings322]

I disagree. (WHIP)

Lopez (1.48) v. Choate (1.10) - straight LOOGY skills, I still take Lopez, despite the increase in walks this season
Romo (0.94) v. League (1.33) - Romo, self-explanatory, a few hanging sliders do not change what Romo is capable of
Affeldt (1.33) v. Jansen (0.88) - Jansen, though Affeldt has gotten some great saves, hopefully Jansen wilts in the August heat
Casilla (1.25) v. Guerra (1.50) - Casilla, he may have flamed out as a true closer, but he is still a better bullpen option than most of the Dodgers staff
Kontos (1.09) v. Belisario (1.01) - Belisario, but this one is pretty close to a push considering they both rarely appear in high-leverage situations and have such similar numbers
Hensley (1.54) v. Wright (1.62) - Hensley. It's easy to hate this guy for being put into situations that he was never expected to handle, but the bottom line is he has eaten a lot of innings for this team and saved the rotation some stress. I doubt the same can be said of Jamey Wright.

Thanks for the breakdown but those numbers look like a wash to me. We have 2 with better WHIPs, they have 2, and 2 are basically the same.

 

[Heathbar012]

Thanks for the breakdown but those numbers look like a wash to me. We have 2 with better WHIPs, they have 2, and 2 are basically the same.

The numbers are a baseline. They are only for this year and don't show the consistency over two full season that you know to exist with the Giants' unit. It also doesn't show the lack of consistency that exists within the Dodgers' pen. Kenley Jansen, one of the pitchers that won his WHIP battle, pitched 80 innings in the majors before this season. That could end up being a positive thing for the Dodgers in the Dog Days of August, but I look at it as a guy that is pitching the most amount of professional innings of his career in extremely high-leverage situations during a pennant race.

Choate's WHIP is vastly superior to Lopez's this year, but for his career it is 1.33 with most of his success occurring in the last three seasons (at the age which Lopez currently resides). Since coming to the Dodgers, Choate's WHIP is 1.50 (SSS). In 101 innings for the Giants, Javier Lopez has a 1.23 WHIP. Due to age and history, I think there is more reason to believe that LOOGY will return to his recent career norms than Choate.

Basically, Choate and League would replace Kontos and Hensley in the Giants' bullpen, and I don't see how a team's set-up men getting mop-up duty would equal a "wash" in the bullpen battle. Obviously, the pen is only one aspect of the game, and I'm not saying the Giants having the edge guarantees an NL West Division Crown. However, to believe that the two units are equal is extremely shortsighted for someone who seems to understand the game as well as you do.

 

[msgkings322]

The numbers are a baseline. They are only for this year and don't show the consistency over two full season that you know to exist with the Giants' unit. It also doesn't show the lack of consistency that exists within the Dodgers' pen. Kenley Jansen, one of the pitchers that won his WHIP battle, pitched 80 innings in the majors before this season. That could end up being a positive thing for the Dodgers in the Dog Days of August, but I look at it as a guy that is pitching the most amount of professional innings of his career in extremely high-leverage situations during a pennant race.

Choate's WHIP is vastly superior to Lopez's this year, but for his career it is 1.33 with most of his success occurring in the last three seasons (at the age which Lopez currently resides). Since coming to the Dodgers, Choate's WHIP is 1.50 (SSS). In 101 innings for the Giants, Javier Lopez has a 1.23 WHIP. Due to age and history, I think there is more reason to believe that LOOGY will return to his recent career norms than Choate.

Basically, Choate and League would replace Kontos and Hensley in the Giants' bullpen, and I don't see how a team's set-up men getting mop-up duty would equal a "wash" in the bullpen battle. Obviously, the pen is only one aspect of the game, and I'm not saying the Giants having the edge guarantees an NL West Division Crown. However, to believe that the two units are equal is extremely shortsighted for someone who seems to understand the game as well as you do.

This is another example of I think a bit of homerism that all of us fans sometimes indulge in. This year at least, due to Wilson's injury but also things like Lopez having for him a down year, our pen simply isn't the league dominant FYWW we once knew. It's still very very good but it was once pretty much the unquestioned best in baseball. And LA's pen is having very good results and I'd wager overall doing at least as well as ours, this year.

So you can say 'career averages' and expect the next 33 games ours will be better than theirs, or you can say 'this year is this year' and see two very good pens. I don't think you can truly, scientifically say much more than if a team has a great, good, average, weak, or terrible pen. More stat-focused fans will surely disagree with that statement, but to me it's too hard to quantify who's got the 5th best overall pen vs the 6th best.

So yeah, all else equal I'd rather have our 6 than theirs. But it feels a bit homerish to say unequivocally ours is much better. And I think if you asked a homerish Dodger fan they'd say the same thing you are, but in reverse.

 

[Heathbar012]

This is another example of I think a bit of homerism that all of us fans sometimes indulge in. This year at least, due to Wilson's injury but also things like Lopez having for him a down year, our pen simply isn't the league dominant FYWW we once knew. It's still very very good but it was once pretty much the unquestioned best in baseball. And LA's pen is having very good results and I'd wager overall doing at least as well as ours, this year.

So you can say 'career averages' and expect the next 33 games ours will be better than theirs, or you can say 'this year is this year' and see two very good pens. I don't think you can truly, scientifically say much more than if a team has a great, good, average, weak, or terrible pen. More stat-focused fans will surely disagree with that statement, but to me it's too hard to quantify who's got the 5th best overall pen vs the 6th best.

So yeah, all else equal I'd rather have our 6 than theirs. But it feels a bit homerish to say unequivocally ours is much better. And I think if you asked a homerish Dodger fan they'd say the same thing you are, but in reverse.

I never stated that the Giants bullpen was much better. It wouldn't be easy to keep Choate on the bench over Lopez this year, but I would do it. Same goes for Romo over League. In certain situations, I would roll Casilla out over Jansen or Affeldt. Thus, the Giants' pen is better. If you want me to put it in your terms, the Giants' pen is great and the Dodgers' is good. Or the Giants' pen is good and the Dodgers' pen is average. Either way, the Giants are better, which we agree on, apparently, now. Earlier in the thread, you said that they are equal, twice.

Yes. I'm a Giants fan, but to think that I'm incapable of evaluating players objectively by watching games and understanding statistical analysis is, again, shortsighted.

 

[msgkings322]

I never stated that the Giants bullpen was much better. It wouldn't be easy to keep Choate on the bench over Lopez this year, but I would do it. Same goes for Romo over League. In certain situations, I would roll Casilla out over Jansen or Affeldt. Thus, the Giants' pen is better. If you want me to put it in your terms, the Giants' pen is great and the Dodgers' is good. Or the Giants' pen is good and the Dodgers' pen is average. Either way, the Giants are better, which we agree on, apparently, now. Earlier in the thread, you said that they are equal, twice.

Yes. I'm a Giants fan, but to think that I'm incapable of evaluating players objectively by watching games and understanding statistical analysis is, again, shortsighted.

I wasn't that clear, I still think they are basically a wash but I'd take ours because...they're ours!

You seem to have your hackles up, please don't. I didn't mean to make this a fight. I think both pens are very good, you think the Giants is meaningfully better. You're probably right, I'll concede if that defuses some tension.

 

[Heathbar012]

I wasn't that clear, I still think they are basically a wash but I'd take ours because...they're ours!

You seem to have your hackles up, please don't. I didn't mean to make this a fight. I think both pens are very good, you think the Giants is meaningfully better. You're probably right, I'll concede if that defuses some tension.

No fight. Just disagreement. In the grand scheme of games won, it may be a wash (since having 4 guys with an MLB history of .850+ OPS seems to be more important), but you're basically downgrading the one advantage the Giants have over the Dodgers. If you don't think it is an advantage based on scouting and numbers, then I can't help you. At that point, you have become the opposite of a homer. That would be a "woe is me, my team's rival spends lots of money, so I'm going to focus on the inevitable falling sky" Chicken Little rather than a "man, it's a good thing that we have a favorable schedule, 3-game lead, decent line-up and great pitching staff" knowledgeable fan that I know you to be.

 

[msgkings322]

No fight. Just disagreement. In the grand scheme of games won, it may be a wash (since having 4 guys with an MLB history of .850+ OPS seems to be more important), but you're basically downgrading the one advantage the Giants have over the Dodgers. If you don't think it is an advantage based on scouting and numbers, then I can't help you. At that point, you have become the opposite of a homer. That would be a "woe is me, my team's rival spends lots of money, so I'm going to focus on the inevitable falling sky" Chicken Little rather than a "man, it's a good thing that we have a favorable schedule, 3-game lead, decent line-up and great pitching staff" knowledgeable fan that I know you to be.

I like the sound of the latter guy so I'm him!

I was just talking pens, not overall pessimism on this pennant race. Our pen is certainly good enough to win the West, and is a strength.

I still think we're going to be tied heading to LA for those last 3 games. That's pretty cool.

 

[Heathbar012]

I like the sound of the latter guy so I'm him!

I was just talking pens, not overall pessimism on this pennant race. Our pen is certainly good enough to win the West, and is a strength.

I still think we're going to be tied heading to LA for those last 3 games. That's pretty cool.

Oh, yeah. I just got the impression that you were allowing the pessimism over lacking an advantage in other areas to seep into further pessimism over a declining advantage that still remains an advantage even after losing the anchor of said advantage early in the season. That isn't advantageous to anyone.