Dungy hearts Brady

[Fountain City Blues]

Lol. Great minds man. That's who my money is on too. I'm calling KC every day to try and get Smith if I'm the Jags. He's perfect for them. Really good young D, a rush attack that looks top 10 in the league , good serviceable wideouts and tight end. You add Smith to that and I think they win the South

I think it makes a lot of sense. A 3rd-4th round type pick means jack shit but being able to sit a guy a year- credibly- would do the Jags a lot of good when trying to develop their next QBotF; while pushing the playoffs and giving themselves a roll of the dice if nothing else. Credibility across the league doesn't hurt around the league or lockerroom either.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Bill Belichick was an average NFL coach before Tom Brady . That's fact . There is no viable, logical system of analysis you can use that would not have Brady number 1. Even the people who ranked him second are fucking insane

Horrendously short memory

Tom Brady threw one total TD in the 2001 postseason, a year they won the SB by holding the greatest show on turf to 17 points, an amazing feat if you remember how much of a machine that offense was...Brady threw for 145 yards in that SB....

His second SB win, Brady was excellent vs Carolina, but in the 2 games to get there, they held Tennessee and and another offensive machine in Peytons' Indy team, to 14 points each, while Brady threw for 201 and 237 yards respectively, with 2 total TD's and an INT

The Pats 3rd SB win, again, they completely shut down that same high powered Indy team 20-3 on their way there.... with Brady throwing for 144 yards in that game

On and On and On

of course Brady has had huge postseason games and deserves a ton of credit, but to ignore the impact BB has had in earning these rings, is simply revising or ignoring history........

Because he didnt win big in Cleveland, where by the way, 6-10, 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5, is pretty damn good by Cleveland Browns standards, proves nothing.....

This is also a coach that won 11 games with the God awful Matt Cassell (Brady won 10 the following season), and would have absolutely gone 4-0 last season if Garrapolo not gone down......

And lets not forget all the praise he received for "practicing" the play that won them a SB when Malcolm Butler made the play we will all see for the rest of our lives

Fact is BB would have less rings without Brady, and Brady would have less rings without BB and his phenomenal defenses, no need to even dispute it...There is no "viable, logical system of analysis" that can minimize the impact of Bill Belichick on the Patriots titles

 

[soxfan1468927]

Horrendously short memory

Tom Brady threw one total TD in the 2001 postseason, a year they won the SB by holding the greatest show on turf to 17 points, an amazing feat if you remember how much of a machine that offense was...Brady threw for 145 yards in that SB....

His second SB win, Brady was excellent vs Carolina, but in the 2 games to get there, they held Tennessee and and another offensive machine in Peytons' Indy team, to 14 points each, while Brady threw for 201 and 237 yards respectively, with 2 total TD's and an INT

The Pats 3rd SB win, again, they completely shut down that same high powered Indy team 20-3 on their way there.... with Brady throwing for 144 yards in that game

On and On and On

of course Brady has had huge postseason games and deserves a ton of credit, but to ignore the impact BB has had in earning these rings, is simply revising or ignoring history........

Because he didnt win big in Cleveland, where by the way, 6-10, 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5, is pretty damn good by Cleveland Browns standards, proves nothing.....

This is also a coach that won 11 games with the God awful Matt Cassell (Brady won 10 the following season), and would have absolutely gone 4-0 last season if Garrapolo not gone down......

And lets not forget all the praise he received for "practicing" the play that won them a SB when Malcolm Butler made the play we will all see for the rest of our lives

Fact is BB would have less rings without Brady, and Brady would have less rings without BB and his phenomenal defenses, no need to even dispute it...There is no "viable, logical system of analysis" that can minimize the impact of Bill Belichick on the Patriots titles

1. Brady also ran for a TD and threw for 312 yards in the divisional game. But you won't get an argument from me about how he managed his way to a Super Bowl that year. The defensive game plan against the Rams was phenomenal.

2 and 3. In one season you focus on the 2 games to get there, while simply acknowledging the Super Bowl performance, and in the other you focus on 1 game while ignoring the other 2. Pittsburgh and Philadelphia had the 1st and 10th best defenses in the league that year, and the defense gave up 27 points to Pittsburgh and 21 to Phialdelphia. Fact is, that in 4 of the 5 Super Bowl runs, the defense has given up 27 points in at least 1 game. In those games, Brady is 122/181 (67.4%), 1394 yards (349 yards per game), 10 TDs (plus 1 rushing), and 3 INTs (101.9 passer rating). Now, of course, the defense has to play well in order for him to get there to have these performances, but doing this on 4 separate occasions to get to a Super Bowl win is pretty remarkable. Like I've said, I put more stock into the 2004 and 2014 Super Bowl runs. 2004 because he didn't have a bad game that entire run and had to go into Pittsburgh to face a 15-1 team that had the best defense in the league. 2014 because he had to come back three different times from 10+ point holes. But how many guys have multiple great Super Bowl runs?

4. You are using Cleveland's standards today to compare it to Cleveland standards in the early 90s. They weren't close to the dumpster fire they have been since re-entering the league. Belichick took over the team that was 1 year removed from going to 3 of 4 AFC Championships.

5. And Cassel had a better season in KC throwing to Tony Moeaki and Dwayne Bowe than he did in New England throwing to Randy Moss and Wes Welker. Do you think they win a Super Bowl with Garrapolo last year?

6. You don't have to forget that play, but Brady's performance in that Super Bowl run was pretty ridiculous.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I would say in 3/5 Super Bowl runs, he was the most important player on the field in at least 2 of the 3 games.

2001 AFC Divisional: Brady
2001 AFC CG: Kordell Stewart
2001 Super Bowl: Ty Law (the whole secondary really)

2003 AFC Divisional: the weather, it was -10 degrees
2003 AFC CG: Ty Law
2003 Super Bowl: Brady

2004 AFC Divisional: Corey Dillon
2004 AFCCG: Brady
2004 Super Bowl: Brady

2014 AFC Divisional Game: Brady
2014 AFC CG: Blount and the fact that the Colts didn't show up. Plus the refs for making sure the Pats had the correct balls
2014 Super Bowl: Brady

2016 AFC Divisional: Derek Carr getting hurt so we got to play the Texans
2016 AFCCG: Brady
2016 Super Bowl: Brady

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

1. Brady also ran for a TD and threw for 312 yards in the divisional game. But you won't get an argument from me about how he managed his way to a Super Bowl that year. The defensive game plan against the Rams was phenomenal.

2 and 3. In one season you focus on the 2 games to get there, while simply acknowledging the Super Bowl performance, and in the other you focus on 1 game while ignoring the other 2. Pittsburgh and Philadelphia had the 1st and 10th best defenses in the league that year, and the defense gave up 27 points to Pittsburgh and 21 to Phialdelphia. Fact is, that in 4 of the 5 Super Bowl runs, the defense has given up 27 points in at least 1 game. In those games, Brady is 122/181 (67.4%), 1394 yards (349 yards per game), 10 TDs (plus 1 rushing), and 3 INTs (101.9 passer rating). Now, of course, the defense has to play well in order for him to get there to have these performances, but doing this on 4 separate occasions to get to a Super Bowl win is pretty remarkable. Like I've said, I put more stock into the 2004 and 2014 Super Bowl runs. 2004 because he didn't have a bad game that entire run and had to go into Pittsburgh to face a 15-1 team that had the best defense in the league. 2014 because he had to come back three different times from 10+ point holes. But how many guys have multiple great Super Bowl runs?

4. You are using Cleveland's standards today to compare it to Cleveland standards in the early 90s. They weren't close to the dumpster fire they have been since re-entering the league. Belichick took over the team that was 1 year removed from going to 3 of 4 AFC Championships.

5. And Cassel had a better season in KC throwing to Tony Moeaki and Dwayne Bowe than he did in New England throwing to Randy Moss and Wes Welker. Do you think they win a Super Bowl with Garrapolo last year?

6. You don't have to forget that play, but Brady's performance in that Super Bowl run was pretty ridiculous.

This will always be the problem in trying to dissect who is really a Patriot fan and who is just a Brady fan

Here i am giving great praise to the HC, and it automatically becomes a slight to Brady

As i stated, "Brady would have less wins without BB and vice versa"

There is statistical evidence that i provided that clearly exhibits that New England isnt in some of these Super Bowls, without the Bruschi/Law led defensive performances in many of those games that got them there......

And may I also mention that in many of the New England postseason losses, 2 of them to the NY Giants, one to Rexs' Jets, it wasnt the defense led them down in some of those losses...........

So can as easily say that BB may have MORE rings without Tom Brady? I dont think thats the case, but following along the logic originally provided, you can play that same game

 

[rmilia1]

Horrendously short memory

Tom Brady threw one total TD in the 2001 postseason, a year they won the SB by holding the greatest show on turf to 17 points, an amazing feat if you remember how much of a machine that offense was...Brady threw for 145 yards in that SB....

His second SB win, Brady was excellent vs Carolina, but in the 2 games to get there, they held Tennessee and and another offensive machine in Peytons' Indy team, to 14 points each, while Brady threw for 201 and 237 yards respectively, with 2 total TD's and an INT

The Pats 3rd SB win, again, they completely shut down that same high powered Indy team 20-3 on their way there.... with Brady throwing for 144 yards in that game

On and On and On

of course Brady has had huge postseason games and deserves a ton of credit, but to ignore the impact BB has had in earning these rings, is simply revising or ignoring history........

Because he didnt win big in Cleveland, where by the way, 6-10, 7-9, 7-9 and 11-5, is pretty damn good by Cleveland Browns standards, proves nothing.....

This is also a coach that won 11 games with the God awful Matt Cassell (Brady won 10 the following season), and would have absolutely gone 4-0 last season if Garrapolo not gone down......

And lets not forget all the praise he received for "practicing" the play that won them a SB when Malcolm Butler made the play we will all see for the rest of our lives

Fact is BB would have less rings without Brady, and Brady would have less rings without BB and his phenomenal defenses, no need to even dispute it...There is no "viable, logical system of analysis" that can minimize the impact of Bill Belichick on the Patriots titles

You're conflating Cleveland now with Cleveland then . The Browns were a perennial playoff contender when Belichick took over . They then went 14 games under .500 in his tenure. I'm sure he grew and got better as a coach but the fact remains that BB has made the playoffs one time in the 6 seasons he's coached where Brady wasn't his QB. Once. In 6 years .

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

I would say in 3/5 Super Bowl runs, he was the most important player on the field in at least 2 of the 3 games.

2001 AFC Divisional: Brady
2001 AFC CG: Kordell Stewart
2001 Super Bowl: Ty Law (the whole secondary really)

2003 AFC Divisional: the weather, it was -10 degrees
2003 AFC CG: Ty Law
2003 Super Bowl: Brady

2004 AFC Divisional: Corey Dillon
2004 AFCCG: Brady
2004 Super Bowl: Brady

2014 AFC Divisional Game: Brady
2014 AFC CG: Blount and the fact that the Colts didn't show up. Plus the refs for making sure the Pats had the correct balls
2014 Super Bowl: Brady/Pete Caroll and Malcolm Butler

2016 AFC Divisional: Derek Carr getting hurt so we got to play the Texans
2016 AFCCG: Brady
2016 Super Bowl: Brady/Matt Ryan and Dan Quinn

And Adam Vinatieri needs to be inserted somewhere in the conversation, most notably the Tuck game

 

[soxfan1468927]

This will always be the problem in trying to dissect who is really a Patriot fan and who is just a Brady fan

Here i am giving great praise to the HC, and it automatically becomes a slight to Brady

As i stated, "Brady would have less wins without BB and vice versa"

There is statistical evidence that i provided that clearly exhibits that New England isnt in some of these Super Bowls, without the Bruschi/Law led defensive performances in many of those games that got them there......

And may I also mention that in many of the New England postseason losses, 2 of them to the NY Giants, one to Rexs' Jets, it wasnt the defense led them down in some of those losses...........

So can as easily say that BB may have MORE rings without Tom Brady? I dont think thats the case, but following along the logic originally provided, you can play that same game

Your whole post was a slight to Brady, not a praise of the head coach. I think that was pretty clear. You can try to dissect if I'm a Brady fan or a Pats fan but your opinion on that doesn't really matter. I think Belichick is the GOAT coach and Brady is the GOAT QB.

 

[soxfan1468927]

And Adam Vinatieri needs to be inserted somewhere in the conversation, most notably the Tuck game

Sure, I can add in the refs for knowing the rule. I'm not saying he was the only factor, but the most important factor in those games I listed. Vinatieri was big in the 2003 AFC Divisional Game as well, hitting that FG in the freezing cold. But I have a hard time putting a kicker as the most important player in any one game, especially when he missed a FG earlier in said game. Which is why I always find it funny that people give Vinatieri credit for the Super Bowl XXXVIII win just because he made the last kick. He missed 2 and Brady was awesome, yet because they won by 3, he gets credit. Not from you, but I hear that a lot.

If we are comparing QBs, how many have had that much impact on that many Super Bowl runs?

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

You're conflating Cleveland now with Cleveland then . The Browns were a perennial playoff contender when Belichick took over . They then went 14 games under .500 in his tenure. I'm sure he grew and got better as a coach but the fact remains that BB has made the playoffs one time in the 6 seasons he's coached where Brady wasn't his QB. Once. In 6 years .

And Bill Parcells didnt build a HOF coaching career on his years outside of New York

Sometimes the construction of your roster does matter

Because Cleveland was a year or 2 removed from big things when BB took over, doesnt necessarily mean, not even a little bit, that he was dealing with the same strength of roster.......It could just mean that Cleveland had come to the end of their run when he was taking over......

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Your whole post was a slight to Brady, not a praise of the head coach. I think that was pretty clear. You can try to dissect if I'm a Brady fan or a Pats fan but your opinion on that doesn't really matter. I think Belichick is the GOAT coach and Brady is the GOAT QB.

So you basically completely agree with my entire opinion, but needed to insert the proverbial "Gotta pump Brady back up" post

Got it

 

[rmilia1]

And Bill Parcells didnt build a HOF coaching career on his years outside of New York

Sometimes the construction of your roster does matter

Because Cleveland was a year or 2 removed from big things when BB took over, doesnt necessarily mean, not even a little bit, that he was dealing with the same strength of roster.......It could just mean that Cleveland had come to the end of their run when he was taking over......

For sure but he did nothing to turn that around save 94 and he's 0 for 2 in NE without Brady and went .500 in those 2 years. I'm willing to say he's definitely a better coach now than he was in Cleveland but I do not think he's elite . Elite coaches take different teams/QBs to great heights. If Brady retires and BB keeps winning at a high clip I'll gladly admit to being wrong but nothing he's prior suggests that will happen. We may never know

 

[soxfan1468927]

So you basically completely agree with my entire opinion, but needed to insert the proverbial "Gotta pump Brady back up" post

Got it

Your overall point that Belichick would win less without Brady and vice versa? Sure. Not sure why anyone would dispute that. But, like so often occurs with you, your points to get there are cherry-picking so I'm going to counter them.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

For sure but he did nothing to turn that around save 94 and he's 0 for 2 in NE without Brady and went .500 in those 2 years. I'm willing to say he's definitely a better coach now than he was in Cleveland but I do not think he's elite . Elite coaches take different teams/QBs to great heights. If Brady retires and BB keeps winning at a high clip I'll gladly admit to being wrong but nothing he's prior suggests that will happen. We may never know

Sure, unfortunately a lot of that completely ignores the facts I posted, like how many Super Bowls would Brady have won or even been in without Belichick?

And how many postseason losses did BB's defense play well enough, and Brady lost them the game?

A couple of Super Bowls, a couple of losses to Denver, a loss to Rex' Jets, maybe another one or 2 im not thinking of


We will have to agree to dis-agree, I think they have been the perfect marriage, and would both be less successful without each other

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Your overall point that Belichick would win less without Brady and vice versa? Sure. Not sure why anyone would dispute that. But, like so often occurs with you, your points to get there are cherry-picking so I'm going to counter them.

The entire reason for my post is because someone is disputing that

 

[soxfan1468927]

The entire reason for my post is because someone is disputing that

Yes I think rmilia takes it to the extreme that even Patriots fans wouldn't go to. Don't forget, you aren't talking to a Pats fan when talking to him.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

Yes I think rmilia takes it to the extreme that even Patriots fans wouldn't go to. Don't forget, you aren't talking to a Pats fan when talking to him.

Yeah, ive noticed since January, he has kinda been jacking up Brady more and more to sorta minimize Atlantas responsibility in losing that game....And of course Brady was sensational, so dont go nuts on me

I know your a Pats fan, I dont believe many of the guys here that claim to be, are, but I really wasnt trying to shit on Brady as much as I was trying to exhibit BB's greatness and contributions to the titles

 

[soxfan1468927]

Sure, unfortunately a lot of that completely ignores the facts I posted, like how many Super Bowls would Brady have won or even been in without Belichick?

And how many postseason losses did BB's defense play well enough, and Brady lost them the game?

A couple of Super Bowls, a couple of losses to Denver, a loss to Rex' Jets, maybe another one or 2 im not thinking of


We will have to agree to dis-agree, I think they have been the perfect marriage, and would both be less successful without each other

The Pats defense has given up less than the average points per game in 21 of Brady's playoff games, they are 17-4. They've given up more than the average in 13 games, they are 8-5. Just food for thought.

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

The Pats defense has given up less than the average points per game in 21 of Brady's playoff games, they are 17-4. They've given up more than the average in 13 games, they are 8-5. Just food for thought.

Seems like a statistic that perfectly supports the fact that BOTH BB and Brady are both high or at the top of the all time list...

 

[Fountain City Blues]

I am triggered as a Chiefs fan every time someone says Cassel had a better season in 2010 in KC than NE. Numbers lie sometimes. The RB with the Jim Brown YPC tends to mess up normal football orthodoxy along with luck.