Off Season Thread

[cdumler7]

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

How does it not make sense? Del Rio when he has been a head coach has never followed up a double digit win season with a winning season the next year. He has now 3 times as a head coach had a double digit winning season (10 or more wins). The first 2 he followed it up with duds as a head coach when the team had a lot of expectations. This wouldn't be the first time we have seen a team with lots of expectations flop the next year if the Raiders were to struggle this upcoming season.

Andy Reid when he got the "dream team" put together in Philly went I think 4-12. Bill Belichick after his 1994 season with the Browns having them look like a team that was on the rise well of course saw everything fall apart after that. The Broncos in 2005 were one of the top teams in football. Followed that up with a dud of a season even with most of the same parts returning the next year.

Del Rio as a coach so far has not done well when expectations are put on him. The one season I actually liked him in Denver was the 2013 season with defensive players going down left and right with injuries. He had to get creative in how he was using players and win with scheme not just talent. Now the defense was still not a good unit overall but they seemed to make plays when they absolutely needed to. The next year we get Ware, Talib, and Ward to the defense and he goes to very vanilla playcalling the entire year and even said that his scheme and players are superior so no reason to really change things. Well it worked fine against terrible teams but the Patriots destroyed that system. Expectations made him go conservative where the year before he was taking chances with players and it was working at times.

It don't make sense because you are trying to blend what he did years ago with the teams he had then to the team he has now.. It's two totally different situations. That's why it don't make sense..

And what Reid and Belichick did with those teams they had, have no meaning to what the team we have now.
The Dream team was a FA put together team in which the players didn't fit the system. Wasn't Vince Young the QB of that team?? Cmon man. And Agin the same could be said for the Belichick Browns coached team..
This RAIDER team is drafted along with FA that fit what we want to do on the offensive side of the ball, while the defense is putting the finishing touches to it.. It's not really even fair to compare those teams to this team..

Again cd, you fail to put blame on the offensive side of the ball in the years JDR was there. You can't simply put the blame all on JDR when PM was choking games away, now can you? And let's not forget JDR taking over for your HC who was sick and still winning games? The issues went much deeper than just JDR but blame needed to be put on someone and he was the guy..

 

[cdumler7]

It don't make sense because you are trying to blend what he did years ago with the teams he had then to the team he has now.. It's two totally different situations. That's why it don't make sense..

And what Reid and Belichick did with those teams they had, have no meaning to what the team we have now.
The Dream team was a FA put together team in which the players didn't fit the system. Wasn't Vince Young the QB of that team?? Cmon man. And Agin the same could be said for the Belichick Browns coached team..
This RAIDER team is drafted along with FA that fit what we want to do on the offensive side of the ball, while the defense is putting the finishing touches to it.. It's not really even fair to compare those teams to this team..

Again cd, you fail to put blame on the offensive side of the ball in the years JDR was there. You can't simply put the blame all on JDR when PM was choking games away, now can you? And let's not forget JDR taking over for your HC who was sick and still winning games? The issues went much deeper than just JDR but blame needed to be put on someone and he was the guy..

It goes deeper than just Jack Del Rio but the offense was far from the issue during those years. The 2013 team still owns the record for most points scored. Heck they put up 52 points against the Cowboys and barely won the game. Manning had to have the greatest QB season in NFL history for that team to be what it was. They also had a decent run game and the OL wasn't terrible. So again to try and put any blame on the offense is ridiculous. Now if you want to say the offense did nothing in the Super Bowl then I'm willing to listen but that is one game. The defense did terrible in that game as well though so full blame all around. Then in 2014 yes I put a ton of blame on Del Rio for that season but also on Fox as he pretty much knew he was on his way out as did Del Rio and they just didn't have any fire. Heck there are whispers that players didn't even want to play in the playoffs because they didn't think they could beat the Pats. That is on the coaching staff if that type of attitude is permeating the players and the coaches are doing nothing to stop it.

As for past history for Del Rio yeah maybe things have changed. There are a lot of coaches though that never learn. One of Del Rio's biggest issues with the Broncos was his inability to see he needed to change for the team to reach its full potential. He decided his way was best and nobody could prove to him they might know something as well. When Elway talked to him about it Del Rio's first reaction was to fight Elway. So when I actually see that he can adjust and be something different than what he has been his entire time in the NFL then I'll give him props. Until then he has a ton to prove as a HC because so far he has been a below average HC when you look at his entire career.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Crazy that it took a young RAIDER coach who Al Davis fired to win you guys those SBs, eh?
JDR comes from the Jags..

Al Davis RIP knew young talent like no other, that's for sure.. HOF!!

 

[cdumler7]

Crazy that it took a young RAIDER coach who Al Davis fired to win you guys those SBs, eh?
JDR comes from the Jags..

Al Davis RIP knew young talent like no other, that's for sure.. HOF!!

Al Davis at one time did. He didn't really adjust as he got older. Got pretty hard headed and set in his ways and wouldn't let new opinions sway him. It was why coaches were getting fired left and right because eventually they were not just yes men to Al Davis. Jerry Jones was the same way until he brought his son on board and finally provided a voice that Jerry was willing to respect and listen to. Now they have finally gotten back on the right track.

And honestly I don't care where a coach came from who fired them. If they come here and win Super Bowls then going through those learning periods were worth it for the Broncos. THis is a league that you get fired by somebody. And I appreciate that Al Davis let a talented coach like Shanahan out the door to come to an organization that respected his genius. Now I will say the doom of Shanahan here in Denver was when he was given GM power on top of HC. As a HC he is top notch. You throw in the GM part though he just has no clue how to handle that side of the game.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

It goes deeper than just Jack Del Rio but the offense was far from the issue during those years. The 2013 team still owns the record for most points scored. Heck they put up 52 points against the Cowboys and barely won the game. Manning had to have the greatest QB season in NFL history for that team to be what it was. They also had a decent run game and the OL wasn't terrible. So again to try and put any blame on the offense is ridiculous. Now if you want to say the offense did nothing in the Super Bowl then I'm willing to listen but that is one game. The defense did terrible in that game as well though so full blame all around. Then in 2014 yes I put a ton of blame on Del Rio for that season but also on Fox as he pretty much knew he was on his way out as did Del Rio and they just didn't have any fire. Heck there are whispers that players didn't even want to play in the playoffs because they didn't think they could beat the Pats. That is on the coaching staff if that type of attitude is permeating the players and the coaches are doing nothing to stop it.

As for past history for Del Rio yeah maybe things have changed. There are a lot of coaches though that never learn. One of Del Rio's biggest issues with the Broncos was his inability to see he needed to change for the team to reach its full potential. He decided his way was best and nobody could prove to him they might know something as well. When Elway talked to him about it Del Rio's first reaction was to fight Elway. So when I actually see that he can adjust and be something different than what he has been his entire time in the NFL then I'll give him props. Until then he has a ton to prove as a HC because so far he has been a below average HC when you look at his entire career.

Didn't PM also throw that game ending pick against the Ravens in that playoff game? So it was more than just the SB? A defense can only hold for so long, then you have PM turning the ball over in crunch time made it worse.. Again, never just blame one person, when there's plenty of blame to go around.

JDR didn't coach the offense, Mustgrave did, and now Downing does. And KNJ was the DC last year not JDR, and now we also have Pagano on the defensive side of the ball.. JDRs job is HC not OC or DC cd.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Al Davis at one time did. He didn't really adjust as he got older. Got pretty hard headed and set in his ways and wouldn't let new opinions sway him. It was why coaches were getting fired left and right because eventually they were not just yes men to Al Davis. Jerry Jones was the same way until he brought his son on board and finally provided a voice that Jerry was willing to respect and listen to. Now they have finally gotten back on the right track.

And honestly I don't care where a coach came from who fired them. If they come here and win Super Bowls then going through those learning periods were worth it for the Broncos. THis is a league that you get fired by somebody. And I appreciate that Al Davis let a talented coach like Shanahan out the door to come to an organization that respected his genius. Now I will say the doom of Shanahan here in Denver was when he was given GM power on top of HC. As a HC he is top notch. You throw in the GM part though he just has no clue how to handle that side of the game.

Al Davis delivered 3 SBs to the RAIDERS. And games that will live forever. He did his job, HOF!
Now it's his sons turn, and Mark is nothing like his dad, but he knows the game real good..

And exactly dude. If a coach don't work in one place it don't mean he won't he will fail in another.. See Shanahan, Belicheck, etc, etc, etc.. Enter JDR to the RAIDERS

 

[cdumler7]

Didn't PM also throw that game ending pick against the Ravens in that playoff game? So it was more than just the SB? A defense can only hold for so long, then you have PM turning the ball over in crunch time made it worse.. Again, never just blame one person, when there's plenty of blame to go around.

JDR didn't coach the offense, Mustgrave did, and now Downing does. And KNJ was the DC last year not JDR, and now we also have Pagano on the defensive side of the ball.. JDRs job is HC not OC or DC cd.

Well that defense gave up what 38 points in that game so while yes Manning's pick and the offense in general struggling in that game didn't help the defense made some huge mistakes. They had given up 2 plays all year of 50 or more yards. They gave up 2 in just that game alone including the hail mary to send the game into overtime.

And I'm not blaming just one person here Idaho. I'm not sure how else to say that. You can though point to one person with a majority of the blame in some situations. The 2014 season crumbling apart especially in the playoffs I put that for the most part on the coaching staff. They had the pieces in place on both sides of the ball for another Super Bowl run and the team had no motivation by the end of the season. The tank was running on empty. That is on the coaching staff to keep that team on the right track the entire year.

And I know JDR's job is to be HC. He had the same issues as HC of the Jags though that he did as a DC for the Broncos of just not adjusting to what is going on around him or designing a team that fit what they were trying to do. He had the players trying to fit what he likes to do even if they didn't fit it. Again did that with the Broncos as a DC. Had lots of players playing out of place. Wolfe the year after JDR left goes out and has a career year as he was not a 2-gap defender. All of a sudden he is allowed to attack and turns into one fo the best 3-4 DE's in football. He didn't all of a sudden just get better. He was just put into a better position to succeed with his skill set.

Again Idaho until I actually see JDR consistently show his coaching is a big reason the Raiders are winning I'm going to have him as a middle of the pack coach that can get more out of a team when they have less talent but struggles when a team has elite talent to get them to live up to the billing.

 

[cdumler7]

Al Davis delivered 3 SBs to the RAIDERS. And games that will live forever. He did his job, HOF!
Now it's his sons turn, and Mark is nothing like his dad, but he knows the game real good..

And exactly dude. If a coach don't work in one place it don't mean he won't he will fail in another.. See Shanahan, Belicheck, etc, etc, etc.. Enter JDR to the RAIDERS

And I"m not saying that JDR can't become that for you guys. Those other guys in Shanahan and Belichick have already proven it. Until JRD can deliver a couple of Super Bowls or heck even 1 he will continue to be recognized as a mediocre coach.

 

[cdumler7]

And I'm not the only one ranking him in that area...

Ranking every NFL head coach, from Bill Belichick to the Class of 2017

Bill Belichick tops 2017 NFL head coach power rankings

Both of these articles talk about him having a good opportunity with a great team to move up in these rankings but until he actually shows it consistently that he can produce Super Bowl caliber teams year in and year out he will continue to be viewed in the middle of the pack light.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Well that defense gave up what 38 points in that game so while yes Manning's pick and the offense in general struggling in that game didn't help the defense made some huge mistakes. They had given up 2 plays all year of 50 or more yards. They gave up 2 in just that game alone including the hail mary to send the game into overtime.

And I'm not blaming just one person here Idaho. I'm not sure how else to say that. You can though point to one person with a majority of the blame in some situations. The 2014 season crumbling apart especially in the playoffs I put that for the most part on the coaching staff. They had the pieces in place on both sides of the ball for another Super Bowl run and the team had no motivation by the end of the season. The tank was running on empty. That is on the coaching staff to keep that team on the right track the entire year.

And I know JDR's job is to be HC. He had the same issues as HC of the Jags though that he did as a DC for the Broncos of just not adjusting to what is going on around him or designing a team that fit what they were trying to do. He had the players trying to fit what he likes to do even if they didn't fit it. Again did that with the Broncos as a DC. Had lots of players playing out of place. Wolfe the year after JDR left goes out and has a career year as he was not a 2-gap defender. All of a sudden he is allowed to attack and turns into one fo the best 3-4 DE's in football. He didn't all of a sudden just get better. He was just put into a better position to succeed with his skill set.

Again Idaho until I actually see JDR consistently show his coaching is a big reason the Raiders are winning I'm going to have him as a middle of the pack coach that can get more out of a team when they have less talent but struggles when a team has elite talent to get them to live up to the billing.

The other team gets paid as well cd to make plays.. It won't always be a defensive game when you have weapons that can hurts defenses. A missed tackle here a broken play there, and boom TD! A coach can only do so much scheme wise, the players need to make the plays.. In a hard fought close game there's no room for error from the QB. PM threw picks the the Bronco defense just couldn't overcome..

Again cd two totally different situations from his Jags days to this RAIDER team. Downing will call the plays on offense while KNJ and Pagano will call the defense.. JDRs job is to hold the team together and hold the coaches and player accountable..

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

And I'm not the only one ranking him in that area...

Ranking every NFL head coach, from Bill Belichick to the Class of 2017

Bill Belichick tops 2017 NFL head coach power rankings

Both of these articles talk about him having a good opportunity with a great team to move up in these rankings but until he actually shows it consistently that he can produce Super Bowl caliber teams year in and year out he will continue to be viewed in the middle of the pack light.

Belicheck is overrated IMO. The Pats win with Brady and the offense, so does Belicheck call the offense?

 

[cdumler7]

Belicheck is overrated IMO. The Pats win with Brady and the offense, so does Belicheck call the offense?

No he doesn't call the offense but you are kidding yourself if you think he didn't help design some of that offense. You are kidding yourself if you don't think he has lots to say on the week to week meetings of how to attack an opposing opponent.

He is a defensive minded guy and for the most part the Patriots have had underrated defenses during his time with the team. Brady and the offense get a lot of the credit for all the winning but the years they have won a Super Bowl I think they have had a top-10 defense every single time. And I can promise you he has lots to say on the defensive side during the meetings.

He has also been their GM and has made quite a few unique calls that people were scratching their heads yet somehow it works out well for them. So no I don't agree with you that he is overrated. I have him as the best coach to ever coach in the NFL. He has done something no other team has done in the Salary Cap era and I"m not sure will ever be repeated. 5 Super Bowl wins in about a 15 year period. I cannot even remember how many straight AFC Title games his team has been to. Playoffs all but 2 years since he took over the Pats and one of those years they missed they went 11-5 with Brady going down week 1 and the other they went 9-7. So not a single losing season with the Pats.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

So Calvin Johnson came out and said he wants to play with Carr and the RAIDERS! He wants the Lions to release him so he can join the RAIDERS. Hmmm i bet Reggie try's to trade fro him. Should be interesting to see if we can get him.

 

[cdumler7]

The other team gets paid as well cd to make plays.. It won't always be a defensive game when you have weapons that can hurts defenses. A missed tackle here a broken play there, and boom TD! A coach can only do so much scheme wise, the players need to make the plays.. In a hard fought close game there's no room for error from the QB. PM threw picks the the Bronco defense just couldn't overcome..

Again cd two totally different situations from his Jags days to this RAIDER team. Downing will call the plays on offense while KNJ and Pagano will call the defense.. JDRs job is to hold the team together and hold the coaches and player accountable..

We are not arguing the same things here Idaho. You seem to think I"m arguing that he will do terrible playcalling the offense or the defense. Not saying that at all. There are qualities from his time as a DC and as a HC that I saw play out over many jobs for him that was his big weakness and that was his stubbornness from ever thinking he was wrong. He has butted heads with people everywhere he has gone because he is so hard headed. So until I actually see that change I'm going to keep saying that will be his undoing with the Raiders and why even with a good roster this upcoming season they will have some struggles.

 

[cdumler7]

And you asked before of who do I have winning the division. I'll tell you now it is not the Raiders. I won't tell you who I do have winning it yet but it is not the Raiders. I have them going 9-7 this upcoming season and just missing the playoffs.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

No he doesn't call the offense but you are kidding yourself if you think he didn't help design some of that offense. You are kidding yourself if you don't think he has lots to say on the week to week meetings of how to attack an opposing opponent.

He is a defensive minded guy and for the most part the Patriots have had underrated defenses during his time with the team. Brady and the offense get a lot of the credit for all the winning but the years they have won a Super Bowl I think they have had a top-10 defense every single time. And I can promise you he has lots to say on the defensive side during the meetings.

He has also been their GM and has made quite a few unique calls that people were scratching their heads yet somehow it works out well for them. So no I don't agree with you that he is overrated. I have him as the best coach to ever coach in the NFL. He has done something no other team has done in the Salary Cap era and I"m not sure will ever be repeated. 5 Super Bowl wins in about a 15 year period. I cannot even remember how many straight AFC Title games his team has been to. Playoffs all but 2 years since he took over the Pats and one of those years they missed they went 11-5 with Brady going down week 1 and the other they went 9-7. So not a single losing season with the Pats.

He's a DC not an Offensive coach cd. The Pats win with Brady and the offense. It is what it is. Nobody can change that.. The Pats ain't had a top notch defense in a while. Shoot, the Falcons put big numbers in them. Again, they pray on a weak schedule year in year out to boost those numbers..

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

We are not arguing the same things here Idaho. You seem to think I"m arguing that he will do terrible playcalling the offense or the defense. Not saying that at all. There are qualities from his time as a DC and as a HC that I saw play out over many jobs for him that was his big weakness and that was his stubbornness from ever thinking he was wrong. He has butted heads with people everywhere he has gone because he is so hard headed. So until I actually see that change I'm going to keep saying that will be his undoing with the Raiders and why even with a good roster this upcoming season they will have some struggles.

You are trying to say that cd. He won't be good because he hasn't won a SB yet. That's the argument you have. Along with you putting most of the blame on him for his Bronco days..

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

And you asked before of who do I have winning the division. I'll tell you now it is not the Raiders. I won't tell you who I do have winning it yet but it is not the Raiders. I have them going 9-7 this upcoming season and just missing the playoffs.

No surprise there dude. You have the Broncos winning it, as you should!
I mean, if a fan base has a good team and picks against his team, that shows weakness IMO

 

[cdumler7]

You are trying to say that cd. He won't be good because he hasn't won a SB yet. That's the argument you have. Along with you putting most of the blame on him for his Bronco days..

No I'm saying I don't think he has the coaching tools to win a Super Bowl ever. I'm not just basing this on his past and the fact that he hasn't won one yet. I'm saying I don't think he has the tools to do it for the Raiders or any future team he coaches. Andy Reid is another great example of a guy with an amazing coaching resume but has never been able to get it done in the big moments. He is missing some qualities as a coach to get them over the hump.

And I'm not just putting it on him but most of the coaching staff. John Fox was a good coach for our 2011 squad that needed a veteran voice in the locker room after McDaniels left the team destroyed. He wasn't a great coach to actually compete for Super Bowl victory though. He was too conservative when the team needed a big decision to go win a close game. He struggled to get the team ready for the toughest opponents on the schedule. Adam Gase at times would get way too pass happy I think trying to appease Peyton Manning. He has no problem admitting that after the Super Bowl he went around and apologized to the entire team for calling a terrible Super Bowl against the Seahawks. He broke down in the team hotel in front of everybody for how unprepared he had the team.