Zimmer is Gonna Stay I hope Gruden Leaves

[flamingrey]

And you're right, teams LOOK for a franchise QB first and foremost. But until they find one, they build their teams around their best player that's on the roster. And the 2 years from 2010-2011, McFadden was that best player, by far.

In the 6 games McFadden played in 2011, he was playing like the best RB in the league, better than AP. The guy was yielding 5.4 ypc. AP has twice averaged more than 4.8 ypc, his rookie year at 5.6 and this season at 6.0. Their offense with Hue was based around McFadden, but he quickly adjusted when McFadden went down and made it a vertical offense.

Gregg Knapp came from Houston whose offense is predicated around Foster and the running game, not Schaub. Furthermore, Knapp his entire career has been a run first guy behind his zone blocking scheme. Feel free to look at the stats of the teams he has OC'ed. Every single one of them has excelled in the running game and suffered in the passing game. Look at his team stats and look at the respective team stats in the years prior to his arrival. You'll see the same story. A team that gets worse in the air with him, but better on the ground, because that's how his offenses are built.

Knapp came in with a healthy McFadden. You better believe like his past with no name RB's, that his offense was going to be built around McFadden. Those are the facts, but continue believing what you'd like.

As for Dalton, there are no averages for him. Most QB's have good games and bad games. And while their is some correlation to playing better against bad defenses and worse against good defenses, there is nowhere near the damn near 100% correlation Dalton has against good and bad defenses.

Hypothetically, if 2 players have identical stats and Player A is across the board good and bad games and Player B only plays good against bad defenses, but looks like he shouldn't be in the league against good defenses, you're going to go with Player A. At least in that case you have a chance to be competitive with the better teams that you'd see in any potential playoff run. I really don't care if Player B plays very well against crappy defenses enough to make his stats look average. End of the day, he isn't carrying the team anywhere. That's the point.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

And you're right, teams LOOK for a franchise QB first and foremost. But until they find one, they build their teams around their best player that's on the roster. And the 2 years from 2010-2011, McFadden was that best player, by far.

In the 6 games McFadden played in 2011, he was playing like the best RB in the league, better than AP. The guy was yielding 5.4 ypc. AP has twice averaged more than 4.8 ypc, his rookie year at 5.6 and this season at 6.0. Their offense with Hue was based around McFadden, but he quickly adjusted when McFadden went down and made it a vertical offense.

Gregg Knapp came from Houston whose offense is predicated around Foster and the running game, not Schaub. Furthermore, Knapp his entire career has been a run first guy behind his zone blocking scheme. Feel free to look at the stats of the teams he has OC'ed. Every single one of them has excelled in the running game and suffered in the passing game. Look at his team stats and look at the respective team stats in the years prior to his arrival. You'll see the same story. A team that gets worse in the air with him, but better on the ground, because that's how his offenses are built.

Knapp came in with a healthy McFadden. You better believe like his past with no name RB's, that his offense was going to be built around McFadden. Those are the facts, but continue believing what you'd like.

As for Dalton, there are no averages for him. Most QB's have good games and bad games. And while their is some correlation to playing better against bad defenses and worse against good defenses, there is nowhere near the damn near 100% correlation Dalton has against good and bad defenses.

Hypothetically, if 2 players have identical stats and Player A is across the board good and bad games and Player B only plays good against bad defenses, but looks like he shouldn't be in the league against good defenses, you're going to go with Player A. At least in that case you have a chance to be competitive with the better teams that you'd see in any potential playoff run. I really don't care if Player B plays very well against crappy defenses enough to make his stats look average. End of the day, he isn't carrying the team anywhere. That's the point.

Didn't knopw about the Knapp thing. Very good point. I will conceed that, as I was unaware. Didn't Dalton throw for over 330 yards last year against Denver's defense? Didn't Dalton throw for over 370 yards against Baltimore's defense of 2011? Granted, he threw quite a bit of picks too, but Baltimore was so far ahead, it was left up to him to throw the ball on every down to try and get back into the game. Dalton has had a few games where he done pretty decent.

I agree, he has not done well against good defenses, but he has had a couple okay games I guess. Palmer has a lot longer track record than Dalton. Kinda hard to judge Dalton just on his first two seasons. He is no RGIII or Russell Wilson, but he could be an "average" QB. I guess we have to wait and see how things pan out.

I am not holding my breath, but he could improve. Palmer is just not as good as you make him out to be. Palmer has got to be kicking himself in the freaking teeth right, demanding a trade and then going from the Bengals to the Raiders.

 

[cincygrad]

Is it ever Palmer's fault? When he threw picks here it was always the receivers fault. When he lost games in Oakland it was the fault of the scheme.

Why are the failures of Palmer a product of an offensive coordinator and the failures of Dalton his own? Why not blame Gruden? Does Gruden have a prior track record of beating good defenses?

 

[kramer1]

Is it ever Palmer's fault? When he threw picks here it was always the receivers fault. When he lost games in Oakland it was the fault of the scheme.

Why are the failures of Palmer a product of an offensive coordinator and the failures of Dalton his own? Why not blame Gruden? Does Gruden have a prior track record of beating good defenses?

 

[BigBlueNation111]

 

[flamingrey]

Is it ever Palmer's fault? When he threw picks here it was always the receivers fault. When he lost games in Oakland it was the fault of the scheme.

Why are the failures of Palmer a product of an offensive coordinator and the failures of Dalton his own? Why not blame Gruden? Does Gruden have a prior track record of beating good defenses?

That's a lie.

When jilted fans put everything on Palmer, there is only one other way the response can go. When someone can say the Raiders suck either because Carson sucks or because players don't play hard when he's on the roster, there is only room to defend Palmer, not criticize him. That's why when those comments are made, everyone else gets quiet. But if someone says anything decent about him, everyone is up in arms.

Carson is a mediocre QB. I've said that numerous times. There's a reason they were a 4 win team and not a 7-8 win team. but you like to ignore those comments, so you can make asinine posts like this.

In 2010, Carson was not a 26 INT QB. Probably a 14-15 INT QB. Twist that however you'd like.

After 2011 in Oakland, all the fans on here were calling me a Carson homer because me and futball were the only ones saying Carson played as bad as he did due to all the circumstances. And it turns out we were right. Not because we're homers, but because we aren't jilted and have some sense of reality. Heck, some were saying he was one of the worst QB's in the league, even worse than Sanchez.

And lastly, look at the first page of Carson's thread, his stats are damn near right where I predicted they would be (and even then that was with a productive McFadden). He turned out to be exactly what I've claimed him to be, not what you claimed him to be, nor what you try to make it seem I claim him to be.

You can watch Dalton pass the ball against better defenses and tell he doesn't have the confidence to do it successfully consistently, nor the talent. When the pocket starts to collapse, he wilts. Game after game announcers are mentioning it and people in game threads are mentioning how Dalton isn't seeing open receivers. NONE of that is on Gruden.

But it's okay, I can see what you're doing here. You and most others did the same thing last year midseason, this year early on, and then again this year midseason. You know there's no other possible course the Bengals are going to take, so slowly you're going to convince yourself that Dalton isn't bad and that it's Gruden's fault. Maybe if the NFL gives us an easy schedule early in the season, you can actually "prove" it sooner rather than later.

 

[jwil007]

guess we all get a 20's ranked offense again in 2013..DAMN MAN I hope we get a healthy Sanu, a home run back and better playcalling in 2013... Wish we could also fire Zampese move Urban to QB coach and make Hue WR's coach or let Hue be the QB coach and get Zampese's ass out of here... ALso wish Alexander was kicked to the curb...Tweak the damn coaching staff at least....

 

[CrashDavisSports]

That's a lie.

When jilted fans put everything on Palmer, there is only one other way the response can go. When someone can say the Raiders suck either because Carson sucks or because players don't play hard when he's on the roster, there is only room to defend Palmer, not criticize him. That's why when those comments are made, everyone else gets quiet. But if someone says anything decent about him, everyone is up in arms.

Carson is a mediocre QB. I've said that numerous times. There's a reason they were a 4 win team and not a 7-8 win team. but you like to ignore those comments, so you can make asinine posts like this.

In 2010, Carson was not a 26 INT QB. Probably a 14-15 INT QB. Twist that however you'd like.

After 2011 in Oakland, all the fans on here were calling me a Carson homer because me and futball were the only ones saying Carson played as bad as he did due to all the circumstances. And it turns out we were right. Not because we're homers, but because we aren't jilted and have some sense of reality. Heck, some were saying he was one of the worst QB's in the league, even worse than Sanchez.

And lastly, look at the first page of Carson's thread, his stats are damn near right where I predicted they would be (and even then that was with a productive McFadden). He turned out to be exactly what I've claimed him to be, not what you claimed him to be, nor what you try to make it seem I claim him to be.

You can watch Dalton pass the ball against better defenses and tell he doesn't have the confidence to do it successfully consistently, nor the talent. When the pocket starts to collapse, he wilts. Game after game announcers are mentioning it and people in game threads are mentioning how Dalton isn't seeing open receivers. NONE of that is on Gruden.

But it's okay, I can see what you're doing here. You and most others did the same thing last year midseason, this year early on, and then again this year midseason. You know there's no other possible course the Bengals are going to take, so slowly you're going to convince yourself that Dalton isn't bad and that it's Gruden's fault. Maybe if the NFL gives us an easy schedule early in the season, you can actually "prove" it sooner rather than later.

Homer. Plain and simple.

 

[cincygrad]

I just find it interesting that you attribute the success of quarterbacks you don't like to situational factors such as coaching and talent (see: 49ers).

And I haven't 'talked' myself into anything with the Bengals or Dalton. Not sure what I 'talked' myself into this season? When they won a few games in the middle I 'talked' myself into the idea that they could make a run and get in the playoffs. Not once did I suggest that Dalton could lead them anywhere in the playoffs.

 

[jwil007]

"You can watch Dalton pass the ball against better defenses and tell he doesn't have the confidence to do it successfully consistently, nor the talent. When the pocket starts to collapse, he wilts. Game after game announcers are mentioning it and people in game threads are mentioning how Dalton isn't seeing open receivers. NONE of that is on Gruden."\

See I think its both of their fault along with Zampese...I think Andy is definitely at fault but we NEED a BETTER QB coach...Urban or Hue may get Andy to correct this...I have lost faith in Zampese....

 

[CrashDavisSports]

"You can watch Dalton pass the ball against better defenses and tell he doesn't have the confidence to do it successfully consistently, nor the talent. When the pocket starts to collapse, he wilts. Game after game announcers are mentioning it and people in game threads are mentioning how Dalton isn't seeing open receivers. NONE of that is on Gruden."\

See I think its both of their fault along with Zampese...I think Andy is definitely at fault but we NEED a BETTER QB coach...Urban or Hue may get Andy to correct this...I have lost faith in Zampese....

Gruden is basically the QB coach. Zampese is there, but that is what Gruden was, that is the position he loves, and he runs this offense based on what he knows and liked as a QB. I bet Gruden spends more time with Dalton than Zampese does.

 

[jwil007]

probably...But then GET HIS ASS TO IMPROVE! Jeez....Him and Green need to connect in the spring and summer he needs to life weights upper body and improve that arm strength...

 

[jwil007]

or better yet accuracy and add some touch

 

[CrashDavisSports]

or better yet accuracy and add some touch

That is what needs improved. Green was wide the hell open in the endzone with under 2 minutes to play in that playoff game and Dalton over threw him by at least 5 yards which would have put the Bengals up 20-19 with around 1:30 left to go I think. Not that we wouldn't have given up the game winning FG, but at least we would have put some pressure on Houston.

 

[flamingrey]

I just find it interesting that you attribute the success of quarterbacks you don't like to situational factors such as coaching and talent (see: 49ers).

And I haven't 'talked' myself into anything with the Bengals or Dalton. Not sure what I 'talked' myself into this season? When they won a few games in the middle I 'talked' myself into the idea that they could make a run and get in the playoffs. Not once did I suggest that Dalton could lead them anywhere in the playoffs.

Still twisting the facts to support your claims. There is no QB I "don't like". I have nothing for or against Smith, Cam, Vick, Dalton, etc....all QB's I've argued against. I just call them as I see them.

Smith hasn't proven me wrong yet as he still hasn't played for another team, but every indication is I was right about him, despite most fans on here telling me how good of a QB he was and how his stats proved it. He sucked before Harbaugh, and Harbaugh benched him in the middle of this season for a 2nd year player that could've blown up in his face. As I always said, Smith has very a very limited skillset and his presence did not nor makes that team better. The team went as the defense and Gore went. Talent and skillset wise, he was and still is a mediocre to below mediocre player.

Cam is another big one. I wasn't a fan of his before he took a snap for a number of reasons. Then he started his rookie season off great and you, Kramer, and the rest of the ilk jumped the gun and tried to tell us how we were all wrong. I still preached patience. Not saying he can't become a better QB in the future (I doubt it), but he hasn't proven me wrong yet.

There were some on this board (on ESPN) who wanted to tout Vick as a top 5 QB. There was one (Tubbs) who called him the best in the league. I always maintained that he was mediocre at best (on a very good offensive team that excelled at yac), and that a QB with his skillset may play well in the regular season because there are so many bad defensive teams (a la Dalton), but he'd get shut out in the postseason. I was right.

Dalton I've spoken of ad nauseum. So far he hasn't proven me wrong, and 90% of the posters on this board have been wrong about him. I was called a hater and a Carson homer because I saw the reality behind him. I was right.

Speaking of Carson, everyone thought he was as bad as his numbers suggested in 2010 and 2011 and that he was in a straight line of regression. 2010 it was clear as day the shenanigans of Chad and TO. TO his last 5 seasons in the league led the league in intercepted balls targeted at him with 3 different QB's. Chad was Chad. 2011 Carson came off the couch midseason. Surprisingly (for some), he got "better" in 2012. But that's not the case, he's the same player he was the last 3 seasons, many people just refused to see it, and some still do.

Furthermore, I haven't made any excuses for Carson this year. When 2 players have near identical stats, you look elsewhere to see who's the better player. Dalton had a much better team than Carson in every single facet (minus TE), offense and defense. That's all I did. This one really isn't even close.

Don't try to discredit my opinion by suggesting I dislike players which is why I don't give them credit. I only gave each of them as much credit as I thought they deserved, and I was right (some more than others) about every single one of them.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

Still twisting the facts to support your claims. There is no QB I "don't like". I have nothing for or against Smith, Cam, Vick, Dalton, etc....all QB's I've argued against. I just call them as I see them.

Smith hasn't proven me wrong yet as he still hasn't played for another team, but every indication is I was right about him, despite most fans on here telling me how good of a QB he was and how his stats proved it. He sucked before Harbaugh, and Harbaugh benched him in the middle of this season for a 2nd year player that could've blown up in his face. As I always said, Smith has very a very limited skillset and his presence did not nor makes that team better. The team went as the defense and Gore went. Talent and skillset wise, he was and still is a mediocre to below mediocre player.

Cam is another big one. I wasn't a fan of his before he took a snap for a number of reasons. Then he started his rookie season off great and you, Kramer, and the rest of the ilk jumped the gun and tried to tell us how we were all wrong. I still preached patience. Not saying he can't become a better QB in the future (I doubt it), but he hasn't proven me wrong yet.

There were some on this board (on ESPN) who wanted to tout Vick as a top 5 QB. There was one (Tubbs) who called him the best in the league. I always maintained that he was mediocre at best (on a very good offensive team that excelled at yac), and that a QB with his skillset may play well in the regular season because there are so many bad defensive teams (a la Dalton), but he'd get shut out in the postseason. I was right.

Dalton I've spoken of ad nauseum. So far he hasn't proven me wrong, and 90% of the posters on this board have been wrong about him. I was called a hater and a Carson homer because I saw the reality behind him. I was right.

Speaking of Carson, everyone thought he was as bad as his numbers suggested in 2010 and 2011 and that he was in a straight line of regression. 2010 it was clear as day the shenanigans of Chad and TO. TO his last 5 seasons in the league led the league in intercepted balls targeted at him with 3 different QB's. Chad was Chad. 2011 Carson came off the couch midseason. Surprisingly (for some), he got "better" in 2012. But that's not the case, he's the same player he was the last 3 seasons, many people just refused to see it, and some still do.

Furthermore, I haven't made any excuses for Carson this year. When 2 players have near identical stats, you look elsewhere to see who's the better player. Dalton had a much better team than Carson in every single facet (minus TE), offense and defense. That's all I did. This one really isn't even close.

Don't try to discredit my opinion by suggesting I dislike players which is why I don't give them credit. I only gave each of them as much credit as I thought they deserved, and I was right (some more than others) about every single one of them.

So much effort, so little point. We all understand you are a homer.

 

[jwil007]

I have never been a Dalton Homer....Just wasnt feelin him totally from day 1....Dude has to still SHOW ME...shit Im not sold...

 

[DanBengalfan]

We'll see how Smith does when he's playing for the Jets, or whoever signs him. hard to judge him when he was surrounded by so much talent, but to say he isn't any good is a little goofy.

 

[flamingrey]

We'll see how Smith does when he's playing for the Jets, or whoever signs him. hard to judge him when he was surrounded by so much talent, but to say he isn't any good is a little goofy.

"Talent and skillset wise, he was and still is a mediocre to below mediocre player."

Keep twisting.

 

[DanBengalfan]

I was generalizing, sorry man.