Why do people resist change/improvement in understanding baseball...

[rmilia1]

Yeah but they're not making valid points

If I've found one thing out in 3+ years on this site it's that many people here don't consider any opinion other than one that agrees with theirs to be valid lol. Not much you can do other than continuing to drop facts. You think it's bad here you should traverse your way to the political board. That place is straight allergic to facts

 

[Omar 382]

And there's certain things about players that no stat can quantify and the only way you see these qualities is by watching the game.

To my knowledge there is no stats that shows how well a first baseman can pick it at first base. A first baseman's ability to stretch and hold the bag, and scoop up short hops is vital, and many times, it is the difference between out and safe.

And the value of being a good base runner. Not necessarily base stealing, but the ability to read the ball off of your teammate's bat and go first to third on a single, or score from first on a double. Or even the guy who might be the most swift of foot, but has the ability to get a read on the pitcher and pick the right spots to take second. A guy like Chase Utley is is the all time leader in stolen base%.

Sure you can watch for things like that because there's nothing we have that'll measure it; that may have a 1/4 of a win over a season. Does that discredit all other quantifiable statistics? I don't get why this is an either/or

 

[Omar 382]

If I've found one thing out in 3+ years on this site it's that many people here don't consider any opinion other than one that agrees with theirs to be valid lol. Not much you can do other than continuing to drop facts. You think it's bad here you should traverse your way to the political board. That place is straight allergic to facts

Yeah... pass haha

 

[Omar 382]

I am a stats head... I graduated college with a statistics major...

But I find that the biggest problem is that people use stats wrong... People will spit out numbers and don't understand how they are using it...

Most sabremetrics statistics are used to predict... and most people don't understand the difference between the better player and the better career... Sabremetrics is really good at measuring talent, and what a player should be doing... But there is nothing better than the classic stats to show what a player has actually done....

Then when you get to adjusted statistics, half the time you don't agree with the adjustments, so you are relying on someone elses views of the sport... I personally like to create my own statistics so I can use my own weights, so I never get into the more complex stats out there...

I find that the more complex the stat gets the more subjective it gets...


I tend to use the more classical stats first, if they don't answer the question I need answered clearly enough, then I will make my own stats the way I value baseball...

I find the more I read your post, the more subjective it actually got

 

[Omar 382]

Defensive metrics still suck... In my evaluation, I generally just rank a player defensively into 6 groups,
1. Terrible
2. Below average
3. Average
4. above average
5. good
6. Special

Yeah, totally objective right there

 

[Chewbaccer]

Sure you can watch for things like that because there's nothing we have that'll measure it; that may have a 1/4 of a win over a season. Does that discredit all other quantifiable statistics? I don't get why this is an either/or

I don't discredit them, they have their place, but I don't think advanced stats are the end all be all either.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah, totally objective right there

no matter what analyzing will be subjective... why not make your own opinions on something and then group it...
I will generally take dWAR to get my data to group the players... But it is very hard to take an already subjective stat and use it in an objective way...

 

[Omar 382]

I don't discredit them, they have their place, but I don't think advanced stats are the end all be all either.

Sure. There are scenarios, like swing path, pitching mechanics, turning a double play (well) that you need to watch for yourself.

 

[Omar 382]

no matter what analyzing will be subjective... why not make your own opinions on something and then group it...
I will generally take dWAR to get my data to group the players... But it is very hard to take an already subjective stat and use it in an objective way...

I never said defensive statistics are perfect. Far from it. I just found it humorous when you were talking about subjectivity and then listed six qualitative rankings you give players with no explanation with how you derived making your rankings

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I never said defensive statistics are perfect. Far from it. I just found it humorous when you were talking about subjectivity and then listed six qualitative rankings you give players with no explanation with how you derived making your rankings

I didn't knock on subjectivity... My point was if the analysis was going to be subjective, I might as well infuse my views into it...

 

[Chewbaccer]

Sure you can watch for things like that because there's nothing we have that'll measure it; that may have a 1/4 of a win over a season. Does that discredit all other quantifiable statistics? I don't get why this is an either/or

But it is a little bit deeper than that. A first baseman that saves his fellow infielders from a ton of throwing errors has some added value that we won't see with advanced stats.

 

[Used 2 B Hu]

I am a stats head... I graduated college with a statistics major...

I work with stats, too, and I just don't like things like predictive analytics. Humans are unpredictable creatures

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

This conversation is far too intelligent for me

Hu, dumb down version?

 

[rmilia1]

There is a difference between arguing over how to incorporate facts in to your analysis and arguing whether or not something is a fact. Like you can argue about how much of climate change is man made and what the cost vs reward should be when implementing change but you can not argue climate change isn't real. I can argue about how to use advanced metrics as it pertains to my view on a players season. I can not argue they aren't valid tools.

 

[Used 2 B Hu]

This conversation is far too intelligent for me

Hu, dumb down version?

He say Sabremetricians no boom-boom wit Soul Bruddah

 

[DirtDirtDirt]

He say Sabremetricians no boom-boom wit Soul Bruddah

LMFAO

Gotcha

Not a fan of the sabemetrics.....I know my eyes are telling me Player A is much better than player B, but without fail, there will always be some saber measure that says "No Idiot, Player B is better because i have this obscure stat that says he is"

And me be like

"No, Im pretty sure Mike Schmidt was better than Odibie Mcdowell"

 

[Omar 382]

But it is a little bit deeper than that. A first baseman that saves his fellow infielders from a ton of throwing errors has some added value that we won't see with advanced stats.

But how many wins does that seriously add a year? I'm not talking about statistics, because there are none for this case. Think about it- there are a thousand things that can help a team win or lose. Why are we looking at something so infrequent, and sometimes insignificant as a guy picking a ball? A guy who sticks out with the bases loaded in the first inning significantly decreases his team's chances of winning a game. A first baseman may have 30 picks a year. If he can't pick it cleanly when there's two outs and no one, you have two outs and a guy on first. The chance of a team scoring a run that inning went up- but not by that much. I'm all for the novelties of the game and as a lefty who played first base for most of my time playing baseball, I prided myself on picking balls. I loved it, and I would be so mad if I couldn't pick it cleanly. But the truth is, the outcome of the game is not affected all that much more times than not.

 

[rmilia1]

Also something I've noticed about people who use advanced metrics is they disdain regular statistics. Yes I understand you don't value wins or rbi at the same level but if you want people to appreciate WHIP and OPS then you need to be able to assign some value to regular stats. It's like valuing FG% at a higher rate than PPG or YPA more than total yards. One guy may have a WAR of 6.2 while another guys is 5.7 but if guy B plays more games, hits more homers, drives in more runs and hits for a better BA it's OK for someone to like guy B more even if his OPS isn't quite as good.

 

[Omar 382]

LMFAO

Gotcha

Not a fan of the sabemetrics.....I know my eyes are telling me Player A is much better than player B, but without fail, there will always be some saber measure that says "No Idiot, Player B is better because i have this obscure stat that says he is"

And me be like

"No, Im pretty sure Mike Schmidt was better than Odibie Mcdowell"

Well then they're either ignorant, or worse, being statistically unethical if they are purposely trying to mislead you. No one who actually looks at and studies statistics will say that Luzinski is better than Schmidt.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I took heat last year on my position as it pertained to Harper bring MVP. I understood his individual stats were better I just simply didn't correlate that to being Most Valuable.

Actually, you said their was nothing particularly special about his season. That was hysterical.