Who will be the next Prince Fielder?

[blstoker]

I just have an issue with pitchers winning the MVP. There are few instances when there is a pitcher who is so much better than any batter in the league that being used less than 1/4 of the time is more valuable than a guy used every day.

In 2011, Verlander beat out Ellsbury for the MVP, but had I had a vote I would have voted for Ellsbury. Not only did the guy hit .312/.376/.552 with 46/5/32 EBH and 119/105 R/RBI, but he also won the gold glove and silver slugger. I really thought that Verlander had a great year in '11, and he was dominating that year, I just would rarely give an MVP to a pitcher.

Even in '86, I would have gone with Mattingly, and that would have been even easier than going with Ellsbury over Verlander.

 

[Howie115]

I just have an issue with pitchers winning the MVP. There are few instances when
there is a pitcher who is so much better than any batter in the league that being used less than 1/4 of the time is more valuable than a guy used every day.

I have no issue with that logic, either. If seahawksfan had stated up front that he doesn't think starting pitchers should be in the MVP voting, I wouldn't have even argued.

His logic is if Verlander didn't have the best pitching performance in the last 20 years, he deserved zero MVP votes. I'd say it was ONE of the best, but that means little anyway. He's not competing against 20 years worth of pitchers -- he's competing against players in 2011 ONLY in terms of who brought the most value to his team.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I have no issue with that logic, either. If seahawksfan had stated up front that he doesn't think starting pitchers should be in the MVP voting, I wouldn't have even argued.

His logic is if Verlander didn't have the best pitching performance in the last 20 years, he deserved zero MVP votes. I'd say it was ONE of the best, but that means little anyway. He's not competing against 20 years worth of pitchers -- he's competing against players in 2011 ONLY in terms of who brought the most value to his team.

I don't believe pitchers should be considered for the MVP unless he has a once in a decade type season, which Verlander did not. I'm not going to go through every season in the last 10 years to prove that because I think my comparison to Felix's 2010 season and Greinke's 2009 season serves my point well enough.

Based on what.... ERA only? Throwing out the W/L records....

Verlander in 2011: 2.40 ERA (worse than the other 2, but led the AL that season), 250/57 K/BB (close to Greinke, better than Felix), 0.92 WHIP (much better than the other 2)

Greinke in 2009: 2.16 ERA, 242/51 K/BB, 1.07 WHIP

Felix in 2010: 2.27 ERA, 232/70 K/BB, 1.06 WHIP

You sort of proved my point by posting those stats. Greinke and Felix both had far superior ERAs. The pitcher's job is to stop the other team from scoring. Greinke and Felix in those respective seasons both did a superior job of that.

No, there's also that word "valuable" in there. Verlander's Tigers finished 1st. Greinke's Royals finished dead last in the ALC in 2009. Felix's Mariners finished dead last in the ALW 2010. Doesn't matter if it wasn't their fault, the MVP voters look at how a player helps his team win.

Didn't know that Verlander played every position. You're making it sound like Verlander was the only reason that the Tigers made the playoffs, he was not. He was certainly a large factor but I'd take the superior player, regardless of team W/L. Greinke and Felix both had superior individual performances in their respective season's than Verlander.

Oh, and the stats for Roger Clemens in 1986 (last starter to win an MVP before Verlander):

24-4, 2.48 ERA, 238 Ks in 254 innings, 238/67 K/BB, 0.97 WHIP.

I guess Clemens "did nothing" to deserve an MVP either.

It was another prime example of overvaluing a completely useless W/L statistic.

If you ask me Clemens best seasons were in 1990 and 1997.

1990 was another prime example of taking W/L too seriously. Despite having an ERA a run lower, Roger Clemens came in 2nd place to Bob Welch, due to his 27-6 record.

 

[hawkfan1073]

WHO CARES? It's not like the awards are going to be revoked and given to anyone else. Every one of the pitchers mentioned did a wonderful job....just like the wonderful job of thread jacking you are all are doing.

 

[hawkfan1073]

I think the M's should target Choo or Pence. I think they could both be had for as much as Ellsbury will probably ask alone and that would solidify 2 outfield spots.
We could also then target another starting pitcher not named Harang or Bonderman and possibly a reliever.

 

[Howie115]

I don't believe pitchers should be considered for the MVP unless he has a once
in a decade type season, which Verlander did not.

Clearly, the BBWoA disagree with you. I'll leave it at that and be gone.

 

[Baseballnut77]

I think the M's should target Choo or Pence. I think they could both be had for as much as Ellsbury will probably ask alone and that would solidify 2 outfield spots.
We could also then target another starting pitcher not named Harang or Bonderman and possibly a reliever.

i like that thought we need 2 quality OF's. however i belive the pitching will come from within

 

[hawkfan1073]

however i belive the pitching will come from within

I used to think that as well but it looks like out of our big 3 pitching prospects only 1 is a near lock imo. Hultzen I believe will make the bigs but with a low ceiling and injury issues already I don't think he will last long. Paxton will wash out immediately I think. Walker is the only one of them that will last. If Maurer can return to spring training form we could potentially have a rotation of Felix, Kuma, Walker, Ramirez and Maurer which would be pretty solid....so maybe you are right.

On a side note I think Hultzen will end up a middle reliever at some point in his career and Paxton might be a good candidate for a set up man or a closer.

Thoughts?

 

[Baseballnut77]

I used to think that as well but it looks like out of our big 3 pitching prospects only 1 is a near lock imo. Hultzen I believe will make the bigs but with a low ceiling and injury issues already I don't think he will last long. Paxton will wash out immediately I think. Walker is the only one of them that will last. If Maurer can return to spring training form we could potentially have a rotation of Felix, Kuma, Walker, Ramirez and Maurer which would be pretty solid....so maybe you are right.

On a side note I think Hultzen will end up a middle reliever at some point in his career and Paxton might be a good candidate for a set up man or a closer.

Thoughts?

agree with paxton as a closer but i still see hultzen as being a solid starter. he has good stuff.Injuries are the question mark but i believe he will be healthy soon and will probably be in the rotation next year

 

[dumbrabbit]

If you're talking about the M's, I think Smoak or Morales will be the next Fielder(no pun intended).

If you're talking about a player on another team, I think Yasel Puig has the potential, Jurickson Profar has that potential, and I think Buster Posey can be a Prince Fielder as well.