What's your take on this?

[Broncos6482]

Through the prism that this type of declaration creates, it's tough to reconcile the charge that Incognito was bullying Martin. This is not to say the two men might not have been perceiving their interactions and overall relationship in somewhat divergent terms -- or that it is ever OK to make the kind of racially disparaging comments Incognito did on the voice mail in question.

Yet "bullying" connotes a concerted and mean-spirited attempt to harass and intimidate another teammate -- and I'll be surprised if Incognito's behavior ultimately is judged to fall into that category. I've seen players shunned, ostracized and harassed by a majority of their teammates; this was not the case with Martin, who was communicating with Incognito in a manner suggesting friendship as recently as Sunday afternoon.

There's still a lot that hasn't been uncovered. What if, for example, we learn Martin made similarly extreme, loaded and over-the-top statements to Incognito? If neither player took such language to be literally threatening, that would significantly alter the context.

The fact that Martin still had Incognito's months-old voice mail saved on his phone strikes me as potentially substantial -- perhaps, to him, this was an instance in which a line had been crossed, regardless of whether the man who crossed it was aware of this. Let's remember, first and foremost, that issues of emotional distress are complex and serious -- and that even if Martin is dealing with legitimate workplace harassment, he's also fighting something far more severe.

This I think is of the utmost importance when evaluating the situation. Clearly they were friends, but we don't know how Martin ever responded to Incognito. If they acted this way toward each other for awhile without any issues, but something (like that voicemail for example) was deemed by Martin to have crossed the line, how was Incognito to know unless Martin told him?

 

[cdumler7]

Right now this whole situation just seems to get weirder by the day. Now let me first start off with Knighton's comments. I don't know if his comments are a great showing of how the rest of the NFL players feel. They took a poll today of NFL players of who they would rather have on their team and the votes went like this around 21% said they would want Icognito on their team, 47% said they would rather have Martin, 32% said neither. Now this poll didn't ask every player in the NFL but should give you a decent showing of how players feel about this whole situation. Obviously again they have no idea and we have no idea what all happened.

I do know that Martin's lawyer came out today and said that this went beyond hazing to actual physical violence against Martin. The report says it was done from multiple players not just Icognito. Now again we have no idea to what extent this physical violence it went. I remember my football hazing involving being spanked by a 2X4 and not being upset at all that it happened. I remember others being surrounded and shoved around till they could fight their way out of the circle. Now when it comes to the voice mail left to him we have no idea on the context that was said as you are right it could have been said in fun. Sounds like there are quite a few VM and Texts that are very vulgar in content.

Now this last part is one that no matter the situation I do not agree with but I do know it happens some in the NFL. Supposedly Icognito since he was the leader of the OL got to choose where they had their group meetings. He always chose to have them at a strip club and if you did not show up you were fined. From my understanding there were some that had some major issues with this as their girl friends or wives did not approve of this. First off not sure how good of a meeting you can have with naked women dancing all around you. Doesn't seem very productive. Second there are just certain lines you don't cross and one is putting a man in a situation that could very well upset his wife/girl friend. I know my wife if I was in the NFL would not approve of this behavior and would ask me to either quit the team or move onto another one if at all possible.

 

[WalkerBoh]

One thing to note: Those with introverted personalities (of which I suspect Martin is one) are typically described by others as being "standoffish" or sometimes even "elitist" when in reality they are simply being introverted. Something to think about when digesting all the hearsay that's being reported from the Dolphins and other sources. Personally, I give little credibility to the hearsay.

I suspect the truth is in the middle. That while the press is blowing this up more than it is, Incognito is far from innocent, and was most likely being an a** to Martin. Martin, being an introvert, would be ill equipped to making friends in the locker room easily, and ill equipped to fighting back or standing his ground.

 

[Morpheus]

That's pure speculation on your part, Morph. We really have no idea if what happened in Miami is any better or any worse than what goes on in every other locker room in the NFL.

Here's another thought; according to that article in MMQB, Incognito and Martin were close friends. If that is true, that certainly changes the context of what was said in voice messages and texts. I'm sure everyone has threatened to kill a friend before, or said derogatory things to them in a joking manner. I'm not saying that makes it ok, just pointing out that there are more layers to this than the "Incognito bullied and threateded Martin Incessantly" story that first came out.

Of course I am speculating, hence why I said my perception of it. Most of this discussion is pure speculation until we know all of the details of what transpired the last year and a half.

But Tom Nalen related some of his insight into the Broncos Locker Room. And he admitted that insults and slurs were thrown about casually, but it was in the context of team building. In his opinion, Incognito went to far and was the wrong guy to assume a leadership role in the situation, as alluded to in Michael Silver's article.

Nate Jackson's book, "Slow Getting Up: A Story of NFL Survival from the Bottom of the Pile" also alludes to some of the behavior in the Locker Room.

Look, I am no stranger to hazing and rituals and rites of passage that border on the barbaric and criminal technically. We did some shit in the Army that I am not exactly proud of now that I am 25 years older.

I am not defending Martin or condemning Icognito as being solely responsible. I think the Dolphins management and coaching staff didn't monitor the situation and let things get out of control by enabling a friggin' psychopath with his own issues to use his own twisted judgement on how to toughen up a player and get him to step in line with what was the norm in that locker room.

The Dolphins players are probably just circling the wagons and being loyal to Incognito but as Michael Silver points out, this may just be the beginning of a very public probe into a private world.

It may be the norm in NFL Locker rooms but does it make it OK?

Just because it is standard practice to humiliate, harass and belittle a rookie player as part of a rite of passage does not mean it does not violate any laws nor does it make it acceptable if it continues into his 2nd year and goes beyond what the intended original purpose was. This is just an opinion and not a statement of fact. There is more we do not know yet.

It gets back to the argument that Professional Athlete's are privileged and above the law somehow and not held accountable for their actions.

We were all screaming for Von Miller to shape up and fly right when he had his troubles. Everyone wanted him to start toeing the line and be a model citizen and take care of his personal issues.

Does not the same apply when it comes to how we treat people in the workplace? Sure there will be rookie hazing and rites of passage, but when it goes beyond fun and team building and starts bordering on psychopathic behavior or criminal acts, someone in a position of authority needs to step in and say stop.

I don't agree that just because it happens in the locker room it's no one else's business. If it is against the law then it needs to be put in check.

If a player feels he should not speak up about something that is wrong or is illegal because of some code or not being a rat, that is the same mentality as a criminal gang.

I understand it is one thing to solve a personal dispute with someone "in house" and take care of it as a family. You should be a good teammate and handle it privately.

But what if...and I am just speculating here...Martin had gone along with all the teasing and rookie hazing to "fit in" and get along and expected the hazing to stop his 2nd year? He is obviously from a good family and well educated and I am sure went through some of the same hazing in college. He probably figured he had paid his dues as a rookie and expected to be treated as an equal his 2nd year.

If the harassment continued, he probably got fed up. It seems he is the sensitive and more cerebral type and something in him snapped. Whether he had a mental breakdown or decided to stand up for himself because he felt what was happening was wrong, is not known but he obviously decided that was it.

Now what is missing from this story is why was he still being harassed in his 2nd year? Was he not getting along with his teammates? Was the culture in the Locker Room so offensive to him that he simply could not take it anymore? Was there any activity he did not condone that was occurring and he felt as if he could not be a part of it anymore?

There is a big part of this story that is still missing.

 

[cdumler7]

[/QUOTE]

Now what is missing from this story is why was he still being harassed in his 2nd year? Was he not getting along with his teammates? Was the culture in the Locker Room so offensive to him that he simply could not take it anymore? Was there any activity he did not condone that was occurring and he felt as if he could not be a part of it anymore?

There is a big part of this story that is still missing.[/QUOTE]

I think some of this is starting to come out in he was physically abused at least that is what his lawyer says. Now from the sounds of it the coaches told Icognito to toughen up Martin. To me when you have somebody as unstable as Icognito be given that kind of permission that is like giving a lit match to a kid with a stick of dynamite. Something bad is going to happen. My guess is also with the reports coming out about Icognito having his meetings at Strip Clubs Martin was one of those that did not appreciate that kind of environment. He had been raised by a well to do family so my guess is this kind of behavior went against his "Moral Code." Because of this it sounds like more than just Icognito would harass him and treated him like he was not a part of the "black community." I do think he was looked down upon because he did grow up in an upper class family and to me that is just ridiculous with today's culture. This sounds just like the ESPN reporter that said "RGIII is not black enough." All because he was very respectful and had a good upbringing.

 

[Morpheus]

Now what is missing from this story is why was he still being harassed in his 2nd year? Was he not getting along with his teammates? Was the culture in the Locker Room so offensive to him that he simply could not take it anymore? Was there any activity he did not condone that was occurring and he felt as if he could not be a part of it anymore?

There is a big part of this story that is still missing.[/QUOTE]

I think some of this is starting to come out in he was physically abused at least that is what his lawyer says. Now from the sounds of it the coaches told Icognito to toughen up Martin. To me when you have somebody as unstable as Icognito be given that kind of permission that is like giving a lit match to a kid with a stick of dynamite. Something bad is going to happen. My guess is also with the reports coming out about Icognito having his meetings at Strip Clubs Martin was one of those that did not appreciate that kind of environment. He had been raised by a well to do family so my guess is this kind of behavior went against his "Moral Code." Because of this it sounds like more than just Icognito would harass him and treated him like he was not a part of the "black community." I do think he was looked down upon because he did grow up in an upper class family and to me that is just ridiculous with today's culture. This sounds just like the ESPN reporter that said "RGIII is not black enough." All because he was very respectful and had a good upbringing.[/QUOTE]



If that is the case, then the Dolphins are in a pretty tough legal quagmire. Silver could be correct in his guess that heads will roll. They knowingly condoned a hostile work environment. It also puts the rest of the league on notice that illegal activity will not be tolerated in the work place.

I think a lot of people are missing the point of this.

This is not a "bullying issue" or a case of someone who went too far against someone who does not fit in. If the allegations of threats of physical violence are true then this is a criminal issue.

 

[cdumler7]

Oh I agree at some point in this whole thing there will be legal charges brought up on someone in the Dolphin organization. I also don't think Philbin survives this whole ordeal if it is true that he encouraged Icognito to push Martin yet did nothing to check up on how he was going to do this. Again there is so much information out there right now on both sides of the issue that there really is no telling how this whole thing is going to play out. Reminds me quite a bit when Von Miller first got in trouble and all the information that was being thrown out left and right it was enough to have your head spin. So glad this is not our team right now going through this.

 

[Broncosballer32]

Something else stinks about this and no one is bringing it up. Is it possible he has been setting up the franchise for a while now? I know, crazy right? Why would he keep the voice mail for so long? Why did the whole team seem shocked. Tannehill said they were friends, and everywhere Incognito went, Martin went. That is what he said. Now, all of a sudden he pulls this, and the team genuinely seemed shocked.

Look, I actually once encountered someone that actually made a life habit of suing his employers. I did not know him, not friends with him. I remember him telling me about it. I was in the keys, and we were all talking.

It took a lot for me not to blast this guy too. He was a bit drunk and was pretty much spilling stuff. In a bragging sort of manner. Not for nothing, but we pulled up in a boat, and he came across envious. None of us knew him. Anyway, the reason why I say that, is because after that my friend that I was with is a lawyer. He told me that that was an actual thing. Where there are people that do get jobs, and they sole intent is to set the company up to sue them. They document everything etc etc etc.

They usually get a settlement and depending on what it is, they get a decent pay out. You think I am kidding. There is an element of this that stinks to high heaven. He obviously alienated himself from the whole team. He kept messages.

Something is not adding up, and he has the public on his side. His family are all Ivy league lawyers, and he is a Stanford grad. He knows the law.

Not possible? Really?

 

[gkekoa]

These are grown men playing a game. These are grown men that get an upper hand by overpowering other men. This really shouldn't surprise anybody.

What should surprise people is Martin didn't have the gumption to tell them to screw themselves or at least keep it "in house."

 

[cdumler7]

Something else stinks about this and no one is bringing it up. Is it possible he has been setting up the franchise for a while now? I know, crazy right? Why would he keep the voice mail for so long? Why did the whole team seem shocked. Tannehill said they were friends, and everywhere Incognito went, Martin went. That is what he said. Now, all of a sudden he pulls this, and the team genuinely seemed shocked.

Look, I actually once encountered someone that actually made a life habit of suing his employers. I did not know him, not friends with him. I remember him telling me about it. I was in the keys, and we were all talking.

It took a lot for me not to blast this guy too. He was a bit drunk and was pretty much spilling stuff. In a bragging sort of manner. Not for nothing, but we pulled up in a boat, and he came across envious. None of us knew him. Anyway, the reason why I say that, is because after that my friend that I was with is a lawyer. He told me that that was an actual thing. Where there are people that do get jobs, and they sole intent is to set the company up to sue them. They document everything etc etc etc.

They usually get a settlement and depending on what it is, they get a decent pay out. You think I am kidding. There is an element of this that stinks to high heaven. He obviously alienated himself from the whole team. He kept messages.

Something is not adding up, and he has the public on his side. His family are all Ivy league lawyers, and he is a Stanford grad. He knows the law.

Not possible? Really?

I think it is possible. I can see the NFL wanting to settle this kind of thing as quickly as possible as well as that does seem to be how they handle anything that can paint the NFL in a bad light. As a counselor though it honestly is not strange that Martin kept these recordings and text messages from those who harassed, abused, or whatever else they did. It is not out of the ordinary for victims of this kind of abuse to hold onto the things as for some reason looking back over these things becomes almost an obsession. This happens all the time with kids who get harassed/bullied say over facebook or other social media items that parents eventually find the conversations and just can't believe their kids kept looking at it and allowing these people to say and do what they did without telling them or at least in trying to ignore it. So honestly I can see both sides of it.

It is interesting though now listening to Icognito's old teammates speak about him as I have not heard one teammate have anything good to say about him outside of those who are on the Miami Dolphins. Not saying he can't change as I think he did seek some counseling and was working on trying to be a better guy but that is something else to figure into the equation in every place this guy has gone his teammates have eventually all hated him.

 

[Southieinnc]

I'm not going to side with one player or the other. I find the whole thing suspicious.

I do NOT believe that it is the same in every locker room. I believe that all coaches would let this get this far.

I worked a locker room as a kid. The guys were good to each other and laughed a lot. I was there good days and bad days. I was there more than the players.

Rookies picking up checks is a right of passage. "Requiring" strip clubs is unbelievable to me. There was more than enough balls to say no and not everybody likes strip clubs.

Whether Miami had a problem in the locker room or not, they have one now. To let this "situation" get this far out of control, something is wrong - whatever it is. It should have been handled sooner and internally.

 

[WalkerBoh]

Something else stinks about this and no one is bringing it up. Is it possible he has been setting up the franchise for a while now? I know, crazy right? Why would he keep the voice mail for so long? Why did the whole team seem shocked. Tannehill said they were friends, and everywhere Incognito went, Martin went. That is what he said. Now, all of a sudden he pulls this, and the team genuinely seemed shocked.

Look, I actually once encountered someone that actually made a life habit of suing his employers. I did not know him, not friends with him. I remember him telling me about it. I was in the keys, and we were all talking.

It took a lot for me not to blast this guy too. He was a bit drunk and was pretty much spilling stuff. In a bragging sort of manner. Not for nothing, but we pulled up in a boat, and he came across envious. None of us knew him. Anyway, the reason why I say that, is because after that my friend that I was with is a lawyer. He told me that that was an actual thing. Where there are people that do get jobs, and they sole intent is to set the company up to sue them. They document everything etc etc etc.

They usually get a settlement and depending on what it is, they get a decent pay out. You think I am kidding. There is an element of this that stinks to high heaven. He obviously alienated himself from the whole team. He kept messages.

Something is not adding up, and he has the public on his side. His family are all Ivy league lawyers, and he is a Stanford grad. He knows the law.

Not possible? Really?

Way too contrived. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Otherwise it's worthless speculation rivaling anything coming from ESPN, Yahoo! Sports, or any other two-bit media outlet.

What I find odd is the ONLY people defending this guy are a few Miami Dolphins who've gone public. All the former associates of Incognito have nothing good to say about him. Several in position of scouting Incognito kept him on their "Do Not Draft" lists. Heck, he even got suspended from the Nebraska football program. That's an extraordinary accomplishment in itself.

Here's some more speculation for you: Incognito's a bully. Martin's an introverted fellow player who's an easy mark as a result. The other players, they join in. After all, it's far better being on the side of the bully, then the one being bullied. Martin silently takes it in, trying to cope, trying to "laugh it off" but it never get's easier. Finally he has enough and snaps. The other players? They all run to defend Incognito. After all, if they can pin the blame on Martin, they're off the hook. Impossible you say? Happens in school yards all the time, and is FAR MORE COMMON than the scam artist idea you want to peg Martin as being.

Like I said before, I suspect the truth is in the middle. Martin simply had enough of Incognito being an a** to him.

 

[Morpheus]

Something else stinks about this and no one is bringing it up. Is it possible he has been setting up the franchise for a while now? I know, crazy right? Why would he keep the voice mail for so long? Why did the whole team seem shocked. Tannehill said they were friends, and everywhere Incognito went, Martin went. That is what he said. Now, all of a sudden he pulls this, and the team genuinely seemed shocked.

Look, I actually once encountered someone that actually made a life habit of suing his employers. I did not know him, not friends with him. I remember him telling me about it. I was in the keys, and we were all talking.

It took a lot for me not to blast this guy too. He was a bit drunk and was pretty much spilling stuff. In a bragging sort of manner. Not for nothing, but we pulled up in a boat, and he came across envious. None of us knew him. Anyway, the reason why I say that, is because after that my friend that I was with is a lawyer. He told me that that was an actual thing. Where there are people that do get jobs, and they sole intent is to set the company up to sue them. They document everything etc etc etc.

They usually get a settlement and depending on what it is, they get a decent pay out. You think I am kidding. There is an element of this that stinks to high heaven. He obviously alienated himself from the whole team. He kept messages.

Something is not adding up, and he has the public on his side. His family are all Ivy league lawyers, and he is a Stanford grad. He knows the law.

Not possible? Really?

What evidence is there to support this theory?

Martin is from a wealthy, well educated family. There is no evidence whatsoever that he is trying to scam the team.

Pure speculation.

 

[Broncosballer32]

What evidence is there to support this theory?

Martin is from a wealthy, well educated family. There is no evidence whatsoever that he is trying to scam the team.

Pure speculation.

Well, of course it is pure speculation. So are many of the things being said by the media who are not in that locker room and who only focus on ONE WORD. That is it and that is all. They feel they are justified in making judgements. Maybe they are.

Of course there is something that is also rather glaring, other than the fact that Martin kept an apparent log and history of all of these incidents. It is clear that he never went to the head coach about the situation.

Why is that? Unless there is evidence that he did, I have not heard it.

What if he never went to the head coach about it? Why not?

 

[WalkerBoh]

Well, of course it is pure speculation. So are many of the things being said by the media who are not in that locker room and who only focus on ONE WORD. That is it and that is all. They feel they are justified in making judgements. Maybe they are.

Of course there is something that is also rather glaring, other than the fact that Martin kept an apparent log and history of all of these incidents. It is clear that he never went to the head coach about the situation.

Why is that? Unless there is evidence that he did, I have not heard it.

What if he never went to the head coach about it? Why not?

Simple. If the coach told Incognito to "toughen up Martin" and Martin knew that, then it would make it rather difficult (especially for an introvert) for Martin to go to that same coach and discuss the situation.

 

[Morpheus]

On "The NFL Today" Shannon Sharpe just laid down the law on white guys using the "N" word and black guys who give them permission to do it and call them "Honorary Black guys".

 

[Broncosballer32]

Incognito interview.

So, Johnathan Martin told him he was going to kill Incognito's whole family. Obvious joke. He joked back and forth and there is more than one reason why the whole Dolphins locker room are shocked by what Martin did.

I am still calling this suspicious.

Just watch the interview.

 

[Broncos6482]

This story gets weirder and weirder all the time. But I think one thing is starting to become clear: Richie Incognito was not bullying Martin.

The guys were friends. They sent 1,100 text messages back and forth to each other! And who was the one guy who reached out to Martin after he left? Richie Incognito. And did Martin blame him? Not at all. In fact, he came out and said, it's not you.

 

[Broncos6482]

On "The NFL Today" Shannon Sharpe just laid down the law on white guys using the "N" word and black guys who give them permission to do it and call them "Honorary Black guys".

I think ANYONE, whether black, white, or whatever, who uses the n word is an idiot. Period. The word is just way too charged and offensive, you're just better off not using it.

In college, I had one friend in particular who called everyone the n word, myself included (for the record, he was black). I asked him once, why are you calling me that, I'm about as white as they come. He just laughed and said that's why it was funny. But I always thought he was pretty stupid for using it like that.

 

[WalkerBoh]

Yeah, because Incognito's word is "gold" right now....

Seems rather odd and suspect to me that Ritchie had "saved" so many text messages between he and Martin. 1142? Heck, on my phone the text program only holds the last 200 or so messages in a convo. Most smart phones I know of only keep at most the last 250. And somehow Incognito has over 1,000? Really? Sounds like he's trying really hard to save his own a**.