Was Ty Cobb Racist?

[DragonfromTO]

it doesnt explain his fielding. his teammates were booting balls. he didnt. they could have been pitching to him differently too, who knows?

i see the splits more as coincidental than anything. the fielding stands out to me.

So are you saying that it's OK to take money from gamblers to throw games as long as you double-cross them in the end?

From Mr. Pappas's piece, on fielding: " In each of the first two games, both of which were thrown, Jackson allowed a two-out, two-run triple to left field."

Outfielders can cause more problems for their teams by not getting to balls than they do by dropping them once they get there. But only the latter will get you charged with an error.

 

[huskers1217]

would you please have your fucking baby


wait..are you a giraffe?

 

[DragonfromTO]

it doesnt explain his fielding. his teammates were booting balls. he didnt. they could have been pitching to him differently too, who knows?

i see the splits more as coincidental than anything. the fielding stands out to me.

When you've done something like accepting money with the specific intent of throwing games I think the onus switches a little. The default stance is that he followed through.

 

[ChicagoIrish]

Give me your top two or three reasons why Cobb is a top-5 player of all time (assuming that you agree he is indeed a top 5 player of all time).

I'm not sure if he is a top 5 player of all time. It's tough to put together a list with all the differences in baseball then, and now. Ruth, Williams, Mays, Cobb, DiMaggio, Aaron, Gehrig, Mantle. You could make an argument for any of these guys being top 5 position players.

 

[broncosmitty]

Consider that the odds of seeing a steal of home or triple play were higher than seeing a home run, it would take a special kind of modern fan to appreciate the Dead Ball era.

He won the Triple Crown without putting a ball over the fence.

Hard to even imagine that today.

 

[broncosmitty]

Was Archie bunker racist

Does the Pope shit in his hat?

 

[Rock Strongo]

So are you saying that it's OK to take money from gamblers to throw games as long as you double-cross them in the end?

No I didn't say that. This is a very interesting place. "So what youre saying is..."

No. Its not.

 

[Rock Strongo]

When you've done something like accepting money with the specific intent of throwing games I think the onus switches a little. The default stance is that he followed through.

It's funny I reference a movie from 1994 that everybody says is patently false but five years later you cite something that you claim is fact.

Funny...Maybe a poor choice of words.

 

[DragonfromTO]

No I didn't say that. This is a very interesting place. "So what youre saying is..."

No. Its not.

OK, so are you simply arguing for a less strict punishment for someone who does that? I don't have to keep guessing until I get it right, do I?

The post I responded to seemed focused on Joe's play on the field. No attempt was made to refute that he took the money and agreed to throw the games so I assumed that those points weren't in question, which is how I came (admittedly, jumped) to that conclusion.

 

[DragonfromTO]

It's funny I reference a movie from 1994 that everybody says is patently false but five years later you cite something that you claim is fact.

Funny...Maybe a poor choice of words.

If any of the facts presented in Mr. Pappas's piece have been disproven since then, please share. The grand jury testimony in particular seems damning enough, and it's a matter of public record and straight from Joe's mouth.

 

[Chewbaccer]

I tend to believe that Shoeless Joe got the shaft.

But, what's done is done, and he;s long since served his lifetime ban. Put the man in the Hall.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I tend to believe that Shoeless Joe got the shaft.

But, what's done is done, and he;s long since served his lifetime ban. Put the man in the Hall.

Oh he definitely got the shaft, it's right there in his testimony

Q. Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that series in favor of Cincinnati?

A. They did.

Q. How much did they pay?

A. They promised me $20,000, and paid me five.

Q. Who paid you the $5,000?

A. Lefty Williams brought it in my room and threw it down.

Q. What did you say to Williams when he threw down the $5,000?

A. I asked him what the hell had come off here.

Q. What did he say?

A. He said Gandil said we all got a screw through Abe Attell. Gandil said that we got double crossed through Abe Attell, he got the money and refused to turn it over to him. I don't think Gandil was crossed as much as he crossed us.

 

[Chewbaccer]

Oh he definitely got the shaft, it's right there in his testimony

Q. Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that series in favor of Cincinnati?

A. They did.

Q. How much did they pay?

A. They promised me $20,000, and paid me five.

Q. Who paid you the $5,000?

A. Lefty Williams brought it in my room and threw it down.

Q. What did you say to Williams when he threw down the $5,000?

A. I asked him what the hell had come off here.

Q. What did he say?

A. He said Gandil said we all got a screw through Abe Attell. Gandil said that we got double crossed through Abe Attell, he got the money and refused to turn it over to him. I don't think Gandil was crossed as much as he crossed us.

If you're promised 20,000 but only got 5,000, you got the shaft.

And regardless, his lifetime ban has been served. He's been dead for 66 years. Put him in the Hall.

 

[DragonfromTO]

If you're promised 20,000 but only got 5,000, you got the shaft.

And regardless, his lifetime ban has been served. He's been dead for 66 years. Put him in the Hall.

Oh I know, that was the "shaft" I acknowledged above.

As for Joe in the HoF, it's a bit of a different question. I wouldn't have the same problem with Joe being in the HoF that I have with the push to have his MLB punishment lifted. But as long as they have a rule pertaining to the "ineligible list" there's no way to do one without the other.

 

[DragonfromTO]

It's funny I reference a movie from 1994 that everybody says is patently false but five years later you cite something that you claim is fact.

Funny...Maybe a poor choice of words.

The fact that it's "old" is not the problem with Stump's work though. There's nothing wrong with an old source if it's reliable.

 

[JohnU]

The Black Sox story is considerably more complex than we probably are led to believe. Meanwhile, as the owners successfully transferred the seat of baseball power from Chicago to New York to help finance a new ballpark called Yankee Stadium, home of the only home run hitter in America, a few guys got thrown under the trolley cars. In a phrase, they were all screwed over by people who had a real good idea on how to do that to people who were unwitting. Old Roman Comiskey did the bidding for the gamblers without even knowing what he was doing. Or maybe he did.

That's separate from Cobb, who has zero KNOWN connection to illegal play though it was quite common in those days for players to bet on ball games. I recall reading the story about a rival player who managed to win a batting title with the aid of an opponent who hated Cobb.

I'd also wager that Joe Jackson harbored a bit of racial bias in his world.

Fascinating stuff, these stories, regardless of how true they are. Consider how dull our baseball history would be without these yarns. I prefer to imagine Cobb as a hard-driving, ba-dass ball player that nobody liked. There are plenty of dudes who play sports who donate lots of money to charities. I admire them as well.

 

[tducey]

Yeah he was. Certainly one of the more controversial players in baseball history.

 

[broncosmitty]

If you're promised 20,000 but only got 5,000, you got the shaft.

And regardless, his lifetime ban has been served. He's been dead for 66 years. Put him in the Hall.

He took money to intentionally lose.

He isn't a victim.

 

[Chewbaccer]

He took money to intentionally lose.

He isn't a victim.

But it was a lifetime ban, not an eternal ban. He served his sentence. Put him in the Hall.

 

[soxfan1468927]

But it was a lifetime ban, not an eternal ban. He served his sentence. Put him in the Hall.

But it wasn't a "lifetime ban" it was a "permanent ineligibility".

And the HOF is separate. Jackson was on the first ballot. The HOF should allow permanent ineligible players, in my opinion, to be on the ballot. But that was a just a fairly recent rule they put in place.