Uggla to Braves

[xxERICSMITHXX]

The Braves got a steal...but keep in mind that Uggla rejected a 4-year, $48 million contract offer. Not sure if he's worth more than 12 million a year.

It honestly doesn't matter if Uggla signs an extension or not, the Braves got a steal even if only for one year of Uggla. They pretty much gave up nothing for him.

 

[xxERICSMITHXX]

Will you guys still call it a steal for the Braves if Uggla leaves in FA after next season.They made this trade with no knowledge if he would sign an extension and Uggla wants to get PAID.I say until Uggla resigns with Atl then the Marlins did alright in this trade since they wouldnt pay 1 of their stars.

They gave up Omar Infante and a RP that has control issues for Uggla. It is probably better if he doesn't sign an extension just so they don't have to worry about him in year 3 of the contract.

 

[xxERICSMITHXX]

Nah, the Marlins wanted Uggla back. They offered up to 4 years/48 million. Uggla insisted on 5 years/71 million, which he's totally not worth. The 71 million # is either him being a douche, or just pure coincidence. Hanley's making 70 million over 6 years, and he and Hanley have had an off-field issue in the past, which was blown up by the media.

Uggla wasn't a "salary slash," though. They wanted to sign him; they just felt he wasn't nearly worth what he was asking for, which is fair. Dan Uggla in 5 years is a DH. He'll probably be a DH sooner than that. He's been one of the worst defensive 2B over the years; it just so happens he overcomes it with his offense.

The Marlins, before the offseason began, said they wanted to 1) improve the bullpen (they still say they're not done with that, despite all the moves), and 2) improve team defense. In that sense, this trade accomplishes that short-term, and Dunn has the potential/stuff to close if he lowers his walk totals. Worst case scenario with Dunn is pretty much a dominant lefty specialist, which is why I like him.

A Dunn type arm does not surprise me. We needed lefties with upside. I post on marlinsbaseball.com, for those who want to check it out, and pretending to be a GM I was laughed at for saying that a Dan Runzler type arm is what we should expect for Uggla. Imo, Runzler>Dunn because he's proven he can get righties out too, as opposed to Dunn who's just a lefty specialist for now. Either way, it doesn't surprise me to get that type of lefty arm in return.

The trade fucked up with Infante. Not that Infante is "bad;" just that utility players don't belong in these types of deals because they're so replaceable, imo. Hopefully he can at least hit like he did in 2010 (which I doubt). The Marlins actually wanted Prado, but the Braves said no to that so they settled for Infante, instead. That's the way it worked out, according to rumors.

Really though, for those who read mlbtraderumors, the Blue Jays offer came out, and their offer for Uggla kinda sucked. None of the guys were ML proven; a couple of the guys in their Uggla offer they used today to acquire Rajai Davis, which proves Uggla's value wasn't as high as most thought (probably because of his contract).

You can call Uggla a douche for wanting the biggest contract on the team, but he probably had nothing to do with that number. That is pretty much all on the agent who is just trying to do what is best for his client. You can't really fault the Uggla for trying to do the best he can for his family. There are only so many years these guys can play, they have to cash in while they can.

I don't really think that is the worst case scenario for Dunn at all. Wasn't he a position player that turned reliever? He might never be able to overcome his wildness and could also end up with arm troubles. That kind of return seems pretty low to me for a player of Uggla's abilities. The Marlins could have made this deal at the end of the offseason, there was no reason to make such a poor deal this early on. Infante is just a terrible player for the marlins to target. He will be gone in a year and has no upside. I just don't see how any Marlins fans can be happy with this deal.

 

[tzill]

It honestly doesn't matter if Uggla signs an extension or not, the Braves got a steal even if only for one year of Uggla. They pretty much gave up nothing for him.

I think you're undervaluing Infante. Dude can straight ball.

 

[xxERICSMITHXX]

I think you're undervaluing Infante. Dude can straight ball.

It doesn't matter, he is only under control for one year. I would also say that saying that he can "straight ball" is a little too strong to describe him. He had a career year, but he isn't going to be that guy again. He isn't an awesome defender, but is a pretty solid Utility player. However, with the Marlins refusing to spend money they had to get more years of control than they did.

 

[I cAnT wAtCh]

You can call Uggla a douche for wanting the biggest contract on the team, but he probably had nothing to do with that number. That is pretty much all on the agent who is just trying to do what is best for his client. You can't really fault the Uggla for trying to do the best he can for his family. There are only so many years these guys can play, they have to cash in while they can.

I don't really think that is the worst case scenario for Dunn at all. Wasn't he a position player that turned reliever? He might never be able to overcome his wildness and could also end up with arm troubles. That kind of return seems pretty low to me for a player of Uggla's abilities. The Marlins could have made this deal at the end of the offseason, there was no reason to make such a poor deal this early on. Infante is just a terrible player for the marlins to target. He will be gone in a year and has no upside. I just don't see how any Marlins fans can be happy with this deal.

I never said I liked the deal.

Anyway, I think you're wrong about Dunn. I've seen him pitch; the guy is nasty, and the #'s (at least against lefties) support it. You're looking at the overall #'s with the 1.8 WHIP, which is fair, but seriously...against lefties, he's been legit. Righties didn't really hit him all that much either; he just struggled against them because of all the walks.

Here, I'll show you his splits last year to prove my point about him.

Dunn v. lefties: 1.22 FIP, 1.45 WHIP, 16.76 K/9, 5.59 BB/9, 0.00 HR/9

Dunn v. righties: 6.08 FIP, 1.93 WHIP, 8.68 K/9, 10.61 BB/9, 0.96 HR/9

As you can see, major difference. That's why I said...worst case scenario is he's a lefty specialist. He's going to be in our pen next year/for many years to come.

He needs to get the walks down against the righties. However, he has the potential to be good against righties, too. Righties only hit .210 off of him last year (+ the 8.68 K/9, showing he has the potential to be good against them), proving that he just needs to get those walks down. Stuff is there against both sides of the plate; he just needs to develop some confidence against the righties.

The Infante part of the deal...as I said, I didn't like that part. Infante had a career year, and he's just a stopgap. He's one of the best utilitymen in baseball, and will start for the Marlins in 2011 (they're not sure yet, if they'll start him at 2B or 3B). Either way, he's unlikely to repeat his .babip from last year, which was the reason for his high batting average, and that's the only reason to like him. While he's not a stud defensively, he's an improvement over Uggla there, and he doesn't strike out, which is cool. He also is really good with runners in scoring position for those who believe in the clutch stats.

The Braves won the deal, itself.

For the Marlins, the deal does help the team, though. They get a LOOGY/power lefty arm, starting 2B/3B + the money to add John Buck (catcher), and a starting pitcher that they're going to sign (rumors say Javier Vazquez wants to pitch here, and the Marlins are interested).

Without getting rid of Uggla's contract, those two things don't happen, so from the Marlins perspective that's partially how they're looking at it too.

The deal itself, imo, is pretty lopsided, but the Marlins should be a better team in 2011 than they were in 2010. I think people are underrating the current roster, just because of the Uggla deal.

 

[msgkings322]

For the Marlins, the deal does help the team, though. They get a LOOGY/power lefty arm, starting 2B/3B + the money to add John Buck (catcher), and a starting pitcher that they're going to sign (rumors say Javier Vazquez wants to pitch here, and the Marlins are interested).

Doesn't surprise me. Vazquez loves to pitch on teams with no shot at the playoffs. He's the opposite of a pressure pitcher. It's why he sucks in the years he pitches on good teams and excels on bad ones.

 

[filosofy29]

For the Marlins, the deal does help the team, though. They get a LOOGY/power lefty arm, starting 2B/3B + the money to add John Buck (catcher), and a starting pitcher that they're going to sign (rumors say Javier Vazquez wants to pitch here, and the Marlins are interested).

Doesn't surprise me. Vazquez loves to pitch on teams with no shot at the playoffs. He's the opposite of a pressure pitcher. It's why he sucks in the years he pitches on good teams and excels on bad ones.

While I tend to agree with you msg, in fairness to the guy, it is much, much closer to Puerto Rico.

 

[msgkings322]

While I tend to agree with you msg, in fairness to the guy, it is much, much closer to Puerto Rico.

Meh. So he likes being on a mediocre team closer to his home country. If the Marlins were contenders he'd be at best a .500 pitcher for them and for sure lose any important game late or playoff game.

 

[tzill]

It doesn't matter, he is only under control for one year. I would also say that saying that he can "straight ball" is a little too strong to describe him. He had a career year, but he isn't going to be that guy again. He isn't an awesome defender, but is a pretty solid Utility player. However, with the Marlins refusing to spend money they had to get more years of control than they did.

Yeah, looking at the stats, you might be right. He projects out to about Uribe on the offensive side, but not nearly as good defensively. I may have overreacted there.

 

[I cAnT wAtCh]

Yeah, looking at the stats, you might be right. He projects out to about Uribe on the offensive side, but not nearly as good defensively. I may have overreacted there.

Not really. Uribe has power; Infante does not.

Regarding Vazquez, he's always been a different/better pitcher in the National League, and has usually been good for over 200 innings every season. He'd definitely upgrade the rotation, regardless of how much people think he sucks in pressure games. Vazquez as a #4 is fine with me.

 

[xxERICSMITHXX]

I never said I liked the deal.

Anyway, I think you're wrong about Dunn. I've seen him pitch; the guy is nasty, and the #'s (at least against lefties) support it. You're looking at the overall #'s with the 1.8 WHIP, which is fair, but seriously...against lefties, he's been legit. Righties didn't really hit him all that much either; he just struggled against them because of all the walks.

Here, I'll show you his splits last year to prove my point about him.

Dunn v. lefties: 1.22 FIP, 1.45 WHIP, 16.76 K/9, 5.59 BB/9, 0.00 HR/9

Dunn v. righties: 6.08 FIP, 1.93 WHIP, 8.68 K/9, 10.61 BB/9, 0.96 HR/9

As you can see, major difference. That's why I said...worst case scenario is he's a lefty specialist. He's going to be in our pen next year/for many years to come.

He needs to get the walks down against the righties. However, he has the potential to be good against righties, too. Righties only hit .210 off of him last year (+ the 8.68 K/9, showing he has the potential to be good against them), proving that he just needs to get those walks down. Stuff is there against both sides of the plate; he just needs to develop some confidence against the righties.

The Infante part of the deal...as I said, I didn't like that part. Infante had a career year, and he's just a stopgap. He's one of the best utilitymen in baseball, and will start for the Marlins in 2011 (they're not sure yet, if they'll start him at 2B or 3B). Either way, he's unlikely to repeat his .babip from last year, which was the reason for his high batting average, and that's the only reason to like him. While he's not a stud defensively, he's an improvement over Uggla there, and he doesn't strike out, which is cool. He also is really good with runners in scoring position for those who believe in the clutch stats.

The Braves won the deal, itself.

For the Marlins, the deal does help the team, though. They get a LOOGY/power lefty arm, starting 2B/3B + the money to add John Buck (catcher), and a starting pitcher that they're going to sign (rumors say Javier Vazquez wants to pitch here, and the Marlins are interested).

Without getting rid of Uggla's contract, those two things don't happen, so from the Marlins perspective that's partially how they're looking at it too.

The deal itself, imo, is pretty lopsided, but the Marlins should be a better team in 2011 than they were in 2010. I think people are underrating the current roster, just because of the Uggla deal.

I'm just saying there is a chance he doesn't end up working out long term...which would be the actual worst case scenario. Even if he still remains wild I think he could still end up as a LH specialist, which wouldn't be the worst case scenario. Wasn't he also a position player turned RP? That could lead to arm problems which could also derail his career. I wasn't really knocking Dunn as much as you thought I was, just saying that overall the Marlins had to do better.

The Marlins have done a lot to shore up the pen so far, but I wouldn't say this trade made them better in the long term or the short. I just really think they could have done better if they had let the offseason play out a little bit more.

Speaking of Buck, I didn't like that deal at all for the Marlins either. There is no way I would have given him that many years, especially with his defense already being so bad.

I think Vasquez would be a great guy for them to target for next year. Will probably only be able to get him on a one year deal so that he can try and rebuild his value, but that is a nice high upside type move.

 

[msgkings322]

Not really. Uribe has power; Infante does not.

Regarding Vazquez, he's always been a different/better pitcher in the National League, and has usually been good for over 200 innings every season. He'd definitely upgrade the rotation, regardless of how much people think he sucks in pressure games. Vazquez as a #4 is fine with me.

He'll be perfect for you guys. Vazquez was born to be a #4 on a so-so team. Just don't pay too much.

 

[TidrowThePitchingMaster]

Not really. Uribe has power; Infante does not.

Regarding Vazquez, he's always been a different/better pitcher in the National League, and has usually been good for over 200 innings every season. He'd definitely upgrade the rotation, regardless of how much people think he sucks in pressure games. Vazquez as a #4 is fine with me.

His performance in big games is far too small a sample to say whether he's a big game pitcher or not, much like anyone else who is described a big game pitcher or not one.

The problem with him was his decrease in stuff last year. His fastball dipped about 3 mph and is probably why he had the 3rd worst K/9 of his career. But you're right, a return to the NL will do nothing but help him.

 

[TidrowThePitchingMaster]

Speaking of Buck, I didn't like that deal at all for the Marlins either. There is no way I would have given him that many years, especially with his defense already being so bad.

While fangraphs has him at -3 runs defensively, I tend to take Fangraphs catcher defense calculations with a grain of salt. This article here2010 Beyond the Box Score Catcher Defense Rankings - Beyond the Box Score, which I would place more stock into, has him at 1.5 runs above average, so I'm not sure he's so bad personally, probably around average. 3 years 18 million? Eh, probably 1 year and 8 mil too much. Then again, it's looking like a player/agent's market this year. Joaquin Benoit got 3 years 16.5 million, and he's a setup guy. That's unheard of.

 

[msgkings322]

His performance in big games is far too small a sample to say whether he's a big game pitcher or not, much like anyone else who is described a big game pitcher or not one.

The problem with him was his decrease in stuff last year. His fastball dipped about 3 mph and is probably why he had the 3rd worst K/9 of his career. But you're right, a return to the NL will do nothing but help him.

Really, can any pitcher have a big enough sample size to be a 'big game pitcher'? Lee was 8-0 in the postseason before we got a hold of him....is he one?

It's a subjective thing in the end, but as someone who follows the White Sox closely I can assure you, Vazquez is the opposite.

 

[tzill]

Not really. Uribe has power; Infante does not.

Regarding Vazquez, he's always been a different/better pitcher in the National League, and has usually been good for over 200 innings every season. He'd definitely upgrade the rotation, regardless of how much people think he sucks in pressure games. Vazquez as a #4 is fine with me.

Uribe has more power, but his ability to actually get on base is much lower. Their projected OPS are 745 and 741 respectively. Not a huge difference there offensively.

 

[xxERICSMITHXX]

I was just watching the MLB network and they were showing an interview with Larry Beinfest and he said that they are sacraficing a little bit of power for more OBP and defense...someone should tell him Uggla had a higher OBP than Infante and that 33 home runs in a big park is a lot more than 8 home runs in a slightly better than average park.

Uggla's defense isn't close to that bad...GM fail IMO

 

[I cAnT wAtCh]

I was just watching the MLB network and they were showing an interview with Larry Beinfest and he said that they are sacraficing a little bit of power for more OBP and defense...someone should tell him Uggla had a higher OBP than Infante and that 33 home runs in a big park is a lot more than 8 home runs in a slightly better than average park.

Uggla's defense isn't close to that bad...GM fail IMO

Uggla is pretty damn bad, defensively.
I don't understand why the Braves are keeping him at 2B/moving Prado to LF. The only reason to do that is to make Uggla's offense look more valuable.

 

[I cAnT wAtCh]

While fangraphs has him at -3 runs defensively, I tend to take Fangraphs catcher defense calculations with a grain of salt. This article here2010 Beyond the Box Score Catcher Defense Rankings - Beyond the Box Score, which I would place more stock into, has him at 1.5 runs above average, so I'm not sure he's so bad personally, probably around average. 3 years 18 million? Eh, probably 1 year and 8 mil too much. Then again, it's looking like a player/agent's market this year. Joaquin Benoit got 3 years 16.5 million, and he's a setup guy. That's unheard of.

Thanks for providing the article. Made me feel better about Buck. And your point, in general, makes a lot of sense. Players seem to be getting a lot of money/years this year in free agency.