Trying to Maintain Perspective

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

You seem to forget that along with the close losses to good teams were also losses that weren't so close.

And there were close losses to bad teams along with close wins to bad teams.

But you keep using all of that as signs that things were looking good.

So that meant the team was about where they should have been (7/8 win teams), which again, for a program that was recovery from the disaster that was the Rich Rod years, is understandable. How many times do have I to bring up other coaches that struggled initially, but once they got their recruits and had 3/4 years to develop them and completely install their system, then got the ball rolling and started dominating?


Like I said, there were negative signs (the almost loss to UConn and Akron) and positive signs (the almost wins against South Carolina and Ohio State). You were focused on the former while I was focused on the latter. At the start of this season it could have easily gone either way given the evidence at hand.

 

[The Authority]

So that meant the team was about where they should have been (7/8 win teams), which again, for a program that was recovery from the disaster that was the Rich Rod years, is understandable. How many times do have I to bring up other coaches that struggled initially, but once they got their recruits and had 3/4 years to develop them and completely install their system, then got the ball rolling and started dominating?


Like I said, there were negative signs (the almost loss to UConn and Akron) and positive signs (the almost wins against South Carolina and Ohio State). You were focused on the former while I was focused on the latter. At the start of this season it could have easily gone either way given the evidence at hand.

LOL. The positive signs you are referring too weren't positive. Almost wins don't mean anything when you are also losing to bad teams, almost losing to bad teams and getting blown out in some situations as well.

There was no evidence it would get better. Only wishful thinking. Michigan looked like absolute dog shit in their bowl game.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

LOL. The positive signs you are referring too weren't positive. Almost wins don't mean anything when you are also losing to bad teams, almost losing to bad teams and getting blown out in some situations as well.

There was no evidence it would get better. Only wishful thinking. Michigan looked like absolute dog shit in their bowl game.

No, what it means is there was inconsistency, which happens when a team is as young as they were.



Which bowl game? Because there was that Sugar Bowl win and South Carolina need a last minute drive and last second heave to beat Michigan. So I guess those two don't count, but the one where a true freshman was making his first collegiate start does.

Could your scarlet and grey glasses get any thicker?


So to use your logic, that it's only about the number of wins and number of loses, MSU should have fired Dantonio after year three and so should Colorado after Bill McCartney after they went 1-10 in his third year. And if they did that, MSU isn't beating Ohio State last year, and Colorado has three less conference titles and one less national title. But at least there wouldn't have been "the Miracle at Michigan."

 

[The Authority]

No, what it means is there was inconsistency, which happens when a team is as young as they were.



Which bowl game? Because there was that Sugar Bowl win and South Carolina need a last minute drive and last second heave to beat Michigan. So I guess those two don't count, but the one where a true freshman was making his first collegiate start does.

The last bowl game.The one that is most relevant going into this year.

Youth is not an excuse. Teams are winning with youth all over the place and if you have the sack to realize that you should be a top team no matter what and not shrug off losses you would see it too but you are too much of an apologist and now you realize how wrong you were.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

The last bowl game.The one that is most relevant going into this year.

Youth is not an excuse. Teams are winning with youth all over the place and if you have the sack to realize that you should be a top team no matter what and not shrug off losses you would see it too but you are too much of an apologist and now you realize how wrong you were.

So what you are saying is that there is no difference between a 17 year true freshman and a 22 year 5th year senior?

And no, teams aren't winning with youth "all over the place." Sure, you might have the odd one here and there, but there were few teams that had as many underclassmen playing as many key positions as Michigan did last year, and none that were more successful.

Seriously dude, why even pretend at this point, you clearly know nothing about college football beyond "Ohio State good, Michigan bad!"


Note, I notice you completely avoided the comment about Dantonio and McCartney. Maybe because you know that I have a point.

 

[Coach_Ed_LPW]

GoblueNavy...I think the problem with your logic is that Hoke's teams are getting progressively worse. Gardner is a 5th year senior, he looks awful. The line is awful...he's had 4 years to recruit...these guys were supposed to be the backbone of the team right now and frankly...they suck. Wile is the worst kicker I've ever seen. Yes he is an RR recruit, but Hoke's been looking at him for 4 years now. Shouldnt he have gone to the best kicker in the country (or one of) and got him there? We are a laughingstock right now. It's just not clicking. I'm praying to Jesus for Harbaugh. He is a proven winner at the highest level. Let me conclude by saying I think Hoke is a good guy, a true Michigan man. I liked what he tried to do, but he just didnt have it.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

GoblueNavy...I think the problem with your logic is that Hoke's teams are getting progressively worse. Gardner is a 5th year senior, he looks awful. The line is awful...he's had 4 years to recruit...these guys were supposed to be the backbone of the team right now and frankly...they suck. Wile is the worst kicker I've ever seen. Yes he is an RR recruit, but Hoke's been looking at him for 4 years now. Shouldnt he have gone to the best kicker in the country (or one of) and got him there? We are a laughingstock right now. It's just not clicking. I'm praying to Jesus for Harbaugh. He is a proven winner at the highest level. Let me conclude by saying I think Hoke is a good guy, a true Michigan man. I liked what he tried to do, but he just didnt have it.

Up until this season, I wouldn't say the teams were necessary "worse."

What everyone is basing the decision on is the record, and the record alone. Which what I'm saying is that there is more to deciding whether a team is better or worse than just the record. For example, a lot of people were saying that the reason that the 2012 team was better than the 2011 team that won the Sugar Bowl. The reason they had a worse record was 1. a harder schedule, 2. less lucky breaks, and 3. the injury to Denard (one could argue that they would won the Nebraska game had Denard not been injured, and likely also the Ohio State game that year).

And while I'll agree about the kicker, a couple things about the O-line and Gardner:

First the O-line, remember, when Hoke showed up there were only 8, E-I-G-H-T, scholarship lineman on the roster, not even enough for a two deep. The fault of which lies solely with Rich Rod, and that would have been a problem for any coach, and Hoke has done about as well as any trying to fix that but focusing in on that with his first two full recruiting classes and getting some highly talented O-line recruits. But people like Authority think the laws of space and time don't apply, and a true sophomore will be as good as a fifth year senior, both in experience/understanding of the game and in physical development. Now, I'll agree the line should be further than they currently are, but how much of that is on Hoke, and how much of that is on the previous OC and the O-line coach (though admittedly that still comes back to Hoke as the head guy, and one his biggest faults in he can be too loyal, and they should have gotten a better O-line coach).

As for Gardner, to a certain extent we need to give the guy a break. He's had two head coaches and three offensive coordinators, hard to develop with inconsistent leadership like that. Not to mention he was moved to WR and then back to QB. Which begs the question, why was he moved to WR? The answer, Rich Rod. In 2012 there were no tall athletic receivers who could stretch the field, only short fast guys like Gallon and Roundtree. Great for the slot and quick slants, what Rich Rod was doing. But not so good for what Hoke was trying to implement.



So to reiterate, because the recruiting, and how close most the loses were I had reasons to believe that once Hoke got everything fully established (which for the umpteenth million time, takes time, and on average 4/5 years) that it would be happy days in Michigan. But in the fourth year, the year when they should have turned the corner, to look that bad is completely unacceptable. It's not so much that they are 2-3, I could have handled that if they had looked good in those 3 loses. But since they didn't, namely to two middling teams (which until then the only big loses were to top ranked teams and the aforementioned Nebraska game). With that in mind, in the year which all I've ever said that this is the year we will know, well now we know, and it isn't good.

 

[The Authority]

So what you are saying is that there is no difference between a 17 year true freshman and a 22 year 5th year senior?

You might have a point if your entire team was filled with 17 year olds but we both know that isn't true.

Seriously dude, why even pretend at this point, you clearly know nothing about college football beyond "Ohio State good, Michigan bad!"

The only thing you know is how to dig deep for excuse after excuse. You are Michigan. Sack up and realize you shouldn't suck this bad EVER. No matter what. Your excuse making is pathetic and makes the dumpster fire you have going on look even worse.

 

[The Authority]

Note, I notice you completely avoided the comment about Dantonio and McCartney. Maybe because you know that I have a point.

Michigan St was trending up. And Michigan was trending down. Plus the expectations were not the same at Michigan St as they were at Michigan, until now anyway.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Up until this season, I wouldn't say the teams were necessary "worse."

What everyone is basing the decision on is the record, and the record alone. Which what I'm saying is that there is more to deciding whether a team is better or worse than just the record. For example, a lot of people were saying that the reason that the 2012 team was better than the 2011 team that won the Sugar Bowl. The reason they had a worse record was 1. a harder schedule, 2. less lucky breaks, and 3. the injury to Denard (one could argue that they would won the Nebraska game had Denard not been injured, and likely also the Ohio State game that year).

And while I'll agree about the kicker, a couple things about the O-line and Gardner:

First the O-line, remember, when Hoke showed up there were only 8, E-I-G-H-T, scholarship lineman on the roster, not even enough for a two deep. The fault of which lies solely with Rich Rod, and that would have been a problem for any coach, and Hoke has done about as well as any trying to fix that but focusing in on that with his first two full recruiting classes and getting some highly talented O-line recruits. But people like Authority think the laws of space and time don't apply, and a true sophomore will be as good as a fifth year senior, both in experience/understanding of the game and in physical development. Now, I'll agree the line should be further than they currently are, but how much of that is on Hoke, and how much of that is on the previous OC and the O-line coach (though admittedly that still comes back to Hoke as the head guy, and one his biggest faults in he can be too loyal, and they should have gotten a better O-line coach).

As for Gardner, to a certain extent we need to give the guy a break. He's had two head coaches and three offensive coordinators, hard to develop with inconsistent leadership like that. Not to mention he was moved to WR and then back to QB. Which begs the question, why was he moved to WR? The answer, Rich Rod. In 2012 there were no tall athletic receivers who could stretch the field, only short fast guys like Gallon and Roundtree. Great for the slot and quick slants, what Rich Rod was doing. But not so good for what Hoke was trying to implement.



So to reiterate, because the recruiting, and how close most the loses were I had reasons to believe that once Hoke got everything fully established (which for the umpteenth million time, takes time, and on average 4/5 years) that it would be happy days in Michigan. But in the fourth year, the year when they should have turned the corner, to look that bad is completely unacceptable. It's not so much that they are 2-3, I could have handled that if they had looked good in those 3 loses. But since they didn't, namely to two middling teams (which until then the only big loses were to top ranked teams and the aforementioned Nebraska game). With that in mind, in the year which all I've ever said that this is the year we will know, well now we know, and it isn't good.

This guy has more excuses than a politician. Geez....tried to tell YOU a million times brady hoke sucked. Hes had 4 years...,whos fault is it they only have freshman and sophmores.....ill give u a hint....."well ahhh ummmm uh a we had a um uhhh a good week of um uh practice"

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

Michigan St was trending up. And Michigan was trending down. Plus the expectations were not the same at Michigan St as they were at Michigan, until now anyway.

In 2008 (Dantonio's 2nd year) MSU was 9-4, in 2009 they were 6-7.

So there's that world class OSU education, where 6 is greater than 9.


And again, you side stepped the reference to Bill McCartney, a HOF coach, who went 1-10 in his third season.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

You might have a point if your entire team was filled with 17 year olds but we both know that isn't true.

It's called hyperbole.

But it looks like you are conceding that youth and inexperience are factors. Which again, you won't find many rosters with as many underclassmen and as few upperclassmen as Michigan. Even less that win many games, less with championships

The only thing you know is how to dig deep for excuse after excuse. You are Michigan. Sack up and realize you shouldn't suck this bad EVER. No matter what. Your excuse making is pathetic and makes the dumpster fire you have going on look even worse.

So like always, you know how to do is troll and throw insults. Because apparently any explanation beyond "you suck,' is an "excuse" in your book.

So I guess we should start calling all analysts "excusers," since that is all they do is makes "excuses."




Which, I notice you have no problem point to an almost lost to a bad team (Akron) as a sign of weakness, but call me out for using an almost win to a great team as a sign of strength. Hypocrite much?

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

This guy has more excuses than a politician. Geez....tried to tell YOU a million times brady hoke sucked. Hes had 4 years...,whos fault is it they only have freshman and sophmores.....ill give u a hint....."well ahhh ummmm uh a we had a um uhhh a good week of um uh practice"

Do you guys seriously not realize it takes four years to go from freshman to senior?

So who was the coach at the start of 2010? I'll give you a hint:

One of the head liners of the class of 2010, was Demar Dorsey, a 4-star CB. He didn't even make it on campus! How is that Hoke's fault he was not on the roster for his first 3 years?


Seriously dude, again for the umpteenth time, Hoke has a better record through his first 3 years than Dantonio did. What gives you the right to talk shit?

 

[The Authority]

In 2008 (Dantonio's 2nd year) MSU was 9-4, in 2009 they were 6-7.

So there's that world class OSU education, where 6 is greater than 9.


And again, you side stepped the reference to Bill McCartney, a HOF coach, who went 1-10 in his third season.

and then Michigan St. bounced back in 2010. One down year doesn't do it. Hoke did worse, then worse, then worse. Are you really this dumb?

 

[The Authority]

It's called hyperbole.

But it looks like you are conceding that youth and inexperience are factors. Which again, you won't find many rosters with as many underclassmen and as few upperclassmen as Michigan. Even less that win many games, less with championships

I haven't conceded anything. Do you care to prove how many more underclassman you have than everybody else.

It's called hyperbole.

So like always, you know how to do is troll and throw insults. Because apparently any explanation beyond "you suck,' is an "excuse" in your book.

So I guess we should start calling all analysts "excusers," since that is all they do is makes "excuses."

Which, I notice you have no problem point to an almost lost to a bad team (Akron) as a sign of weakness, but call me out for using an almost win to a great team as a sign of strength. Hypocrite much?

You didn't quote one insult from me. Do you even know what an insult is?

Are you suggesting that almost losing to Akron is good thing? if so, God help you. You are so lost its not even funny

Have you ever notice that not one single fellow fan has your back on all your excuses. NOT ONE!.

Take a hint and quit embarrassing yourself.

 

[Cleaves2000]

and then Michigan St. bounced back in 2010. One down year doesn't do it. Hoke did worse, then worse, then worse. Are you really this dumb?

He seriously has my vote for the dumbest on the SportsHoopla....

Once hoke gets fired and they get a new coach, i guarantee in navynukes eye he will be the GREATEST coach out there....they could hire matt millen and navynuke would have his handbook 101 excuses for him to.

How could urban meyer come to the mess he took over and do it so quick? And keep it going....but yet hoke gets worse every year and the youth excuse comes out. They lost to utah and minny. Not like they are losing to great teams. Utah isnt very good.


An almost win???? Wtf????

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

and then Michigan St. bounced back in 2010. One down year doesn't do it. Hoke did worse, then worse, then worse. Are you really this dumb?

AND THAT WAS MY POINT!!!!

Talk about dumb.


Clearly now that we have our first five data points in Hoke's fourth year further discussion was made moot. But given the information at the moment of kickoff on August 30th, I had just as valid an argument as you. And even then, let's talk about Bill McCartney, a topic you haven't even acknowledge let alone try to rebut. Through 4 years at Colorado the man was 14-30-1. So clearly by your logic, he would never have any success as a head coach at Colorado and should have been fired.

So what was the man's final record? 93-55-5, with 3 conference titles and 1 national title punching his ticket to the college football hall of fame.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

I haven't conceded anything. Do you care to prove how many more underclassman you have than everybody else.

Right now Michigan has one senior who's a return starter on offense, Gardner.

Ohio State has 3

In 2013 Michigan had 10 returning starters who were upperclassmen, by comparison on Ohio's State's depth chart there were 13 of the 22 starters who were returning upperclassmen.

But of greatest note was the interior O-line. Where all three of Michigan's starters were underclassmen making their first collegiate starts. Which if you actually know anything about football, leaves both A gaps vulnerably. O-line is were you very often see a lot of senior leadership, and very few underclassmen starters.

But just to be clear, you are saying there is no difference between a wet behind the ears 17 year old true freshman and a 22 year old seasoned 5th year senior. Otherwise, what is your point?

You didn't quote one insult from me. Do you even know what an insult is?

And do you know what reading comprehension is?

Are you suggesting that almost losing to Akron is good thing? if so, God help you. You are so lost its not even funny

Did I say that? The answer is no, no I did not.

But if you can say the almost losing to Akron is a bad thing, I can say almost beating Ohio State is a good thing.

Have you ever notice that not one single fellow fan has your back on all your excuses. NOT ONE!.

Take a hint and quit embarrassing yourself.

I think you should look in the mirror. You are the one making a fool of yourself, by your clear lack of understanding of the sport you claim to be a fan of.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

He seriously has my vote for the dumbest on the SportsHoopla....

Once hoke gets fired and they get a new coach, i guarantee in navynukes eye he will be the GREATEST coach out there....they could hire matt millen and navynuke would have his handbook 101 excuses for him to.

How could urban meyer come to the mess he took over and do it so quick? And keep it going....but yet hoke gets worse every year and the youth excuse comes out. They lost to utah and minny. Not like they are losing to great teams. Utah isnt very good.


An almost win???? Wtf????

Sure, 2011 was a "bad" season for Ohio State, but mess?

They had just came off at string of 5 straight years of Big Ten titles and a combine record of 54-10. And the only reason for the struggles in 2011 was the lose of their starting QB and head coach a couple of months before the season began. Before that, there was talk of yet another Big Ten title, and Tressel and Pryor leading Ohio State winning a national title. I would kill to have the Michigan coach walk into that kind of "mess."


And have you've you even read my comments on this thread? I outright stated that the Utah and Minnesota games were the tipping point. But until that point a case could still be made for keeping Hoke. But like your friend, you clearly lack reading comprehension and an understanding of the game.

 

[GoBlueNavyNuke]

Seriously, you guys act like football games are binary; either you win with a score of 1, or lose with a score of 0.

Through his first 3 years (and remember, that's the only time frame in discussion here), Hoke had an average point differential of +10.4359. And in his loses the average difference was only -3.35897! (and that includes those beat downs by Alabama and MSU)

Let me put it this way, if Gardner makes that 2-pt conversion against Ohio State and Gibbons 1 of the 3 missed FG against Penn St. Michigan ends the regular season last year 9-3 not 7-5 and we aren't having this discussion. Just two plays! And has the cliche goes, "coaches coach and players play." Hoke had set up Michigan to win against Ohio State, Penn State, Nebraska, and Iowa last year. Some of the blame falls on Hoke for not finishing them of, but also some belongs on the players and the other coaches.