Top 32 tournament RF Kaline vs Heilmann

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Rightfield Bracket is:

1 B Ruth 9
32 J D Drew 0

16 D Winfield 10
17 G Sheffield 3

8 R Jackson 7
25 E Flick 0

9 P Waner 7
24 W Keeler 0

4 F Robinson 7
29 K Cuyler 0

13 D Evans 13
20 I Suzuki 7

5 R Clemente 11
28 B Giles 2

12 T Gwynn 9
21 S Sosa 1

3 M Ott 7
30 R Staub 1

14 R Smith 6
19 V Guerrero 9

6 A Kaline 9
27 S Rice 0

11 H Heilmann 6
22 B Bonds 0

2 H Aaron 9
31 H Stovey 0

15 A Dawson 8
18 B Abreu 6

7 S Crawford 6
26 H Hooper 0

10 L Walker 9
23 E Slaughter 1

1 B Ruth 8
16 D Winfield 2

8 R Jackson 6
9 P Waner 2

4 F Robinson 13
13 D Evans 0

5 R Clemente 13
12 T Gwynn 3

3 M Ott 9
19 V Guerrero 2

6 A Kaline
11 H Heilmann

2 H Aaron
15 A Dawson

7 S Crawford
10 L Walker

1 B Ruth
8 R Jackson

4 F Robinson
5 R Clemente

3 M Ott

 

[obxyankeefan]

Al Kaline Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Sam Rice 9-0

Harry Heilmann Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Bobby Bonds 6-0

 

[navamind]

Highly recommend Jim Hawkins' biography on Al Kaline.

Anyway, Heilmann was probably the better hitter, but Kaline had some pretty remarkable longevity (70 bWAR from 55-67; had five ~3 WAR seasons after). Kaline's 134 OPS+ over 2834 games is nothing to scoff at either.

 

[Howie115]

Anyway, Heilmann was probably the better hitter, but Kaline had some pretty remarkable longevity (70 bWAR from 55-67; had five ~3 WAR seasons after). Kaline's 134 OPS+ over 2834 games is nothing to scoff at either.

Not to mention, Kaline was one of the best defensive RFs ever.

 

[navamind]

Not to mention, Kaline was one of the best defensive RFs ever.

Yup.

 

[calsnowskier]

OPS+ / Heilmann / Kaline
120 / 14 / 16
130 / 12 / 14
140 / 9 / 10
150 / 6 / 5
160 / 5 / 3
170 / 2 / 1
180 / 2 / 0
190 / 1 / 0

While very close, I think Heilmann takes the OPS+ battle by a nose.

Kaline had a WAR7 of 48.8 vs a 47.1 for Heilmann. VERY close, but a close win for Kaline.

Defense is supposedly a one-sided argument in favor of Kaline, so he gets my vote.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

power- heilman
walks- kaline
BA- Heilman(not close)
strike outs- kaline
speed- kaline(not a strength)
playoffs- kaline(not a strength)
defense- kaline(not close)
longevity- kaline
positional longevity- Kaline

Like the Smith vs Jeter we got defense vs offense.... Yes Kaline was great offensively, but Hellman was clearly better...

Because they are RFs, which is not a defensive premium position, i think i will weigh offense more than defense... And neither player has anything that stands out...

In a close battle, Hellman Wins... But this is VERY close...

 

[calsnowskier]

Because they are RFs, which is not a defensive premium position, i think i will weigh offense more than defense... And neither player has anything that stands out...

I disagree that RF is not a premium position. Sure, it is not "up the middle", and therefore is a "bottom half" position, but personally, I only consider LF and 1B as non-premium defensive positions.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I disagree that RF is not a premium position. Sure, it is not "up the middle", and therefore is a "bottom half" position, but personally, I only consider LF and 1B as non-premium defensive positions.

I don't want to make it sound like i don't think defense is important... i do, and of course it is important...

 

[calsnowskier]

I don't want to make it sound like i don't think defense is important... i do, and of course it is important...

For me, these two have very similar bats. So close that Heilmann only wins that battle by a very slim margin. Yet Kaline wins the defensive competition in a walk.

Personally, I think the bat can only win in this situation if you do actually totally dismiss defense.

But you feel Heilmann was more than just a slight winner with the bat, and that is fair. I just disagree.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

For me, these two have very similar bats. So close that Heilmann only wins that battle by a very slim margin. Yet Kaline wins the defensive competition in a walk.

Personally, I think the bat can only win in this situation if you do actually totally dismiss defense.

But you feel Heilmann was more than just a slight winner with the bat, and that is fair. I just disagree.

When player A's career BA is better than Player B's best season, AND player A is also better at getting XBH(best season and average season)... Then how is it close??

Especially when both are considered middle of the lineup guys...

 

[navamind]

Lofl.

 

[calsnowskier]

When player A's career BA is better than Player B's best season, AND player A is also better at getting XBH(best season and average season)... Then how is it close??

Especially when both are considered middle of the lineup guys...

Batting average?

Career average?

I don't even look at either of those. OPS+, IMHO, is the best way (not the only way) to judge players of different eras. And looking at career numbers is completely useless. Why should Rick Henderson's last 8 years or so have any bearing on what kind of player he was? At that point, he was playing just because he loved the game. Not because he was any good any more.

 

[navamind]

Heilmann played a good chunk of his career in a very hitter friendly era, whereas Kaline played throughout much of the second deadball era. The lgOBP for Heilmann's career was .285. .261 for Kaline. Hell, in 1966 when Kaline batted .288, he finished 3rd in the AL. His .293 average in 1964 finished 7th. Heilmann didn't finish in the top 10 in BA in 1930 when he batted .342 (Hack Wilson was 10th in the NL at .356).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Batting average?

Career average?

I don't even look at either of those. OPS+, IMHO, is the best way (not the only way) to judge players of different eras. And looking at career numbers is completely useless. Why should Rick Henderson's last 8 years or so have any bearing on what kind of player he was? At that point, he was playing just because he loved the game. Not because he was any good any more.

Look at my usage though, i basically am using OPS... Just making walks less important... Middle of the lineup guys are RBI guys... getting hits and having those hits be XBH is very important...

 

[calsnowskier]

Look at my usage though, i basically am using OPS... Just making walks less important... Middle of the lineup guys are RBI guys... getting hits and having those hits be XBH is very important...

OPS and OPS+ are similar, but not the same. As nava pointed out, they played in VASTLY different eras.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

OPS and OPS+ are similar, but not the same. As nava pointed out, they played in VASTLY different eras.

i know it is different...

But lets look at actual averages between eras

MLB averages during players career

stat,Hellman, Kiner

HR%-(.9,2.2) Many more HRs per PA during Kiner's career
SO%-(8.2, 14.0) Many more SOs per PA during Kiner's career
BB%- (7.8,8.6)- More walks per PAduring Kiner's career
XBH%(6.1,6.3)- More XBH per PA during Kiner's career
XBH/H-(25,28)- more XBH per Hit during Kiner's career
AB/RBI- (8.5,8.8)- more AB per RBIs during Kiner's career
IP%-(80,73)- More balls in play during Hellman's career


Heilman had better ratios than Kiner at XBH,XBH/H, and AB/RBI, where those 3 were all better during Kiner's career...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

and you even showed that Hellman had 2 seasons of OPS+ better than any Kiner seasons and has 4 of the top 5 seasons between them 2... again, how is that close offensively??

 

[calsnowskier]

I assume you actually compared Heilmann to Kaline, and not to Kiner...

Again, I completely ignore career numbers and career averages. It is much better (IMHO) to look at seasonal buckets instead. This is why I like WAR7 better than WAR.

I called my OPS analysis of the two close (with Heilmann winning) because Kaline had more good seasons (16 to 14). I grant that Heilman had the higher peak seasons. But Kaline's WAR7 is better, so his best 7 seasons were arguably better than Heilmann's 7 best.

Then you factor in the no-contest with the glove...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I assume you actually compared Heilmann to Kaline, and not to Kiner...

Again, I completely ignore career numbers and career averages. It is much better (IMHO) to look at seasonal buckets instead. This is why I like WAR7 better than WAR.

I called my OPS analysis of the two close (with Heilmann winning) because Kaline had more good seasons (16 to 14). I grant that Heilman had the higher peak seasons. But Kaline's WAR7 is better, so his best 7 seasons were arguably better than Heilmann's 7 best.

Then you factor in the no-contest with the glove...

sorry kaine is what i meant...