Top 32 tournament LF Ramirez vs Raines

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Leftfield Bracket is:

1 B Bonds 5
32 L Brock 1

16 Z Wheat 3
17 S Magee 6

8 M Ramirez 11
25 M Minoso 0

9 T Raines 11
24 J Kelley 0

4 R Henderson 14
29 J Rice 0

13 B Williams 5
20 J Medwick 2

5 C Yastrzemski 7
28 B Veach 0

12 G Goslin 8
21 J Cruz 0

3 T Williams 10
30 R White 0

14 J Burkett 3
19 B Johnson 6

6 P Rose 3
27 R Kiner 5

11 F Clarke 6
22 L Gonzalez 4

2 S Musial 10
31 H Manush 0

15 J Jackson 5
18 W Stargell 7

7 E Delahanty 4
26 J Sheckard 1

10 A Simmons 7
23 B Downing 0

1 B Bonds 9
17 S Magee 2

8 M Ramirez
9 T Raines

4 R Henderson
13 B Williams

5 C Yastrzemski
12 G Goslin

3 T Williams
19 B Johnson

27 R Kiner
11 F Clarke

2 S Musial
18 W Stargell

7 E Delahanty
10 Al Simmons

1 B Bonds

 

[obxyankeefan]

Manny Ramirez Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Minnie MInoso 11-0

Tim Raines Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Joe Kelley 11-0

 

[obxyankeefan]

This is a good one. Depends if you like speed or power, I went with the speed.

 

[calsnowskier]

This is a tough one.

ManRam clearly had the bigger stick, but Rock was better defensively and was one of the best base stealers ever.

I am edging towards ManRam because his bat was miles ahead of Rock's, but I will hold off for a bit to hear arguments.

 

[navamind]

You really can't go wrong with either one.

 

[Cedrique]

This is a tough one.

ManRam clearly had the bigger stick, but Rock was better defensively and was one of the best base stealers ever.

I am edging towards ManRam because his bat was miles ahead of Rock's, but I will hold off for a bit to hear arguments.

Before I looked I would have said Manny by a lot, but damn, Raines' baserunning makes the gap really close. Stolen bases don't always mean much, if anything but when you steal that many and are also successful 85% of the time it makes a difference. Given the fact that Manny hit 555 HRs you'd expect him to have a couple hundred more Runs Scored than Raines, but he doesn't. It's a toss up.

 

[calsnowskier]

Before I looked I would have said Manny by a lot, but damn, Raines' baserunning makes the gap really close. Stolen bases don't always mean much, if anything but when you steal that many and are also successful 85% of the time it makes a difference. Given the fact that Manny hit 555 HRs you'd expect him to have a couple hundred more Runs Scored than Raines, but he doesn't. It's a toss up.

That is the thing about steals. If you are not elite, the entire concept almost becomes a negative to your over-all game.

But guys like Coleman, Raines, Cobb, Henderson, MAYBE Hamilton are so good at it that they distract the pitcher and catcher enough to begin to positively effect other players in the lineup. This calculus can only be used with a small handful of players, though.

 

[da55bums]

dear gawd, Manny is 15th best hitter of all time, not close

Greatest Hitters of All Time | Best Hitters of All Time

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Both are clearly great, but here is the big difference.... Tim raines is a top 5 lead off man of all time, Manny is not top 10 middle of the lineup guy...

So, if i was starting a team, i would choose Raines over manny in an easy decision... Isn't that what better truly is??

 

[da55bums]

Closers and "Lead off hitters" weren't specialized until the 80's

Raines is a top 5 leadoff hitter of the last 35 years.

Manny is a top 15 hitter of the last 100 years.

People don't pick great closers over great starting pitching.

 

[da55bums]

I can just imagine all the leadoff hitters that would be available if SB's were highlighted before the 80's.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think Manny may be a better player, but his skill set is easier to replace. Raines skillset is very rare. While he is not in the Coleman/Henderson/Cobb class, he is in the same school, and only slightly behind (but still a much better over-all player than Coleman).

Raines' unicorn-ness almost makes me want to vote for him over Manny.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think Manny may be a better player, but his skill set is easier to replace. Raines skillset is very rare. While he is not in the Coleman/Henderson/Cobb class, he is in the same school, and only slightly behind (but still a much better over-all player than Coleman).

Raines' unicorn-ness almost makes me want to vote for him over Manny.

If Coleman was in the same school as those guys his mom must have been fucking the Dean of Admissions or something.

 

[da55bums]

I think Manny may be a better player, but his skill set is easier to replace. Raines skillset is very rare. While he is not in the Coleman/Henderson/Cobb class, he is in the same school, and only slightly behind (but still a much better over-all player than Coleman).

Raines' unicorn-ness almost makes me want to vote for him over Manny.

so your saying Ricky Henderson is better than Babe Ruth because stealing bases is harder? to do? Manny is the 15th BEST hitter in the history of baseball but a guy who has the 5th highest SB total is better than him? WOW

I have no idea how Raines is a "unicorn" plenty have had his speed and just didn't steal bases, not many have hit over .300 career with over 500 hrs....I know which "rare" I would take.

 

[calsnowskier]

Batting average? You are bringing batting average into the discussion? THAT is much more of a wow than anything else said in this thread.

But even if BA were a useful stat, Raines is a .300 hitter as well. And Raines wasn't just a good base stealer. He was elite. He is 5th on the all-time list.

And Raines was a much better defender. No one ever laughed at Tim being Tim while playing in the field.

 

[da55bums]

yes, now a days batting average doesn't mean anything

.294 = .312

but a great leadoff guy you would think has a better OBP

.385 = .411, nope Manny still has him easily

what about OPS+

123 = 154, Manny crushed there too

what about runs scored, the leadoff guy should dominate

1571 = 1544, nope not there either

no need to go with RBI and HR

Raines has stolen bases, that's it, one category

I can't even believe this is a debate, hell with Manny's OBP, put him in the leadoff spot and he scores more runs. Look, I love Tim Raines, loved him more than Rickey. Thought he was the most underappreciated guy of his generation. Took the expos in strat-o-matic a ton of times because of him. But plenty of players pre 80's could have stole more bases (and got saves) if they knew it would have been better for their debate of where they stood in the game. Raines is just going against a guy who has him beat in across the board in stats.

 

[da55bums]

I do agree Raines beats Manny at defense pretty easily, lol.