Top 32 tournament 2b Hornsby vs Grich

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

2Basemen Bracket is:

1 R Hornsby 6
32 J Franco 0

16 J Gordon 1
17 J Kent 4

8 B Grich 7
25 J Evers 0

9 F Frisch 5
24 N Fox 2

4 J Morgan 12
29 D Pedroia 3

13 C Biggio 8
20 R Cano 3

5 R Carew 9
28 L Doyle 0

12 W Randolph 5
21 B Doerr 4

3 N Lajoie 12
30 C Knoblauch 0

14 J Robinson 16
19 B McPhee 1

6 C Gehringer 11
27 D Pratt 0

11 R Alomar 13
22 T Phillips 0

2 E Collins 6
31 C Childs 1

15 C Utley 8
18 B Herman 4

7 L Whitaker 8
26 B Myers 1

10 R Sandberg 13
23 T Lazzeri 2

1 R Hornsby 14
17 J Kent 0

8 B Grich 6
9 F Frisch 0

4 J Morgan 8
13 C Biggio 3

5 R Carew 10
12 W Randolph 1

3 N Lajoie 12
14 J Robinson 1

6 C Gehringer 9
11 R Alomar 3

2 E Collins13
15 C Utley 2

7 L Whitaker 5
10 R Sandberg 7

1 R Hornsby
8 B Grich

4 J Morgan
5 R Carew

3 N Lajoie
6 C Gehringer

2 E Collins
10 R Sandberg

 

[obxyankeefan]

Rogers Hornsby Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Julio Franco and Jeff Kent 20-0

Bobby Grich Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Johnny Evers and Frankie Frisch 13-0

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Power- Hornsby wins(not close)
speed-Tie(not a strength by either)
BB- Grich wins(very close)
SO- Hornsby wins(not close) Grich was WORSE than MLB average
BA- Hornsby wins(Not close)
Defense- Grich wins(very close)
defensive longevity- Grich wins(200 more games)
Career Longevity- Hornsby wins(around 1000 more PA)
MVP- Hornsby wins (2-0)
Postseason-Hornsby wins(but not a strength from either)
WS champs- Hornsby wins(1-0)

Hornsby wins in a NOT close battle...

 

[Cedrique]

I think Grich gets undervalued by the Hall of Fame voters, but Hornsby's stats are just crazy. I know WAR isn't the perfect stat, but Hornsby has 6 different seasons where his WAR is over 10.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think Grich gets undervalued by the Hall of Fame voters, but Hornsby's stats are just crazy. I know WAR isn't the perfect stat, but Hornsby has 6 different seasons where his WAR is over 10.

I was surprised in the earlier rounds to see just how strong Grich actually was.

But yes. This one is not close.

 

[calsnowskier]

BTW...

Thanks obx for doing this. This is a MASSIVE undertaking, and you are performing it like a champ!! You have not gotten NEAR enough atta-boys for your work on this.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I would love to figure out a way to really compare old greats to newer greats... Something does seem fishy to me that almost ALL of the all time greats were pre integration...

 

[calsnowskier]

I would love to figure out a way to really compare old greats to newer greats... Something does seem fishy to me that almost ALL of the all time greats were pre integration...

Unfortunately, you can only judge what a player DID, and against his contemporaries. If certain players were unable to be a contemporary (Josh Gibson is the first to come to mind), that is a HUGE hole in any argument.

Personally, I chose to judge acknowledge the discrepancy, and move on. In a civil rights argument, that is not enough. In a baseball argument, I think it is.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Unfortunately, you can only judge what a player DID, and against his contemporaries. If certain players were unable to be a contemporary (Josh Gibson is the first to come to mind), that is a HUGE hole in any argument.

Personally, I chose to judge acknowledge the discrepancy, and move on. In a civil rights argument, that is not enough. In a baseball argument, I think it is.

I am not saying it is a black/white thing... its more that there were only 16 teams until the 1960s(i know Jackie was 1940s, but clemente wasn't until the mid 50s)... Unsurprisingly, there has never been a .400 BA after 1960...

 

[DragonfromTO]

Power- Hornsby wins(not close)
speed-Tie(not a strength by either)
BB- Grich wins(very close)
SO- Hornsby wins(not close) Grich was WORSE than MLB average
BA- Hornsby wins(Not close)
Defense- Grich wins(very close)
defensive longevity- Grich wins(200 more games)
Career Longevity- Hornsby wins(around 1000 more PA)
MVP- Hornsby wins (2-0)
Postseason-Hornsby wins(but not a strength from either)
WS champs- Hornsby wins(1-0)

Hornsby wins in a NOT close battle...

I don't know that I agree that their defense is very close. Grich was excellent st second base, while Hornsby... well, he was a great hitter.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don't know that I agree that their defense is very close. Grich was excellent st second base, while Hornsby... well, he was a great hitter.

I can only base it on dWAR since of course i have never seen Hornsby play...

Both players have a dWAR season over 3, and 2 seasons over 2,

Grich has a career 16.2, vs Hornsby's 13.9

 

[DragonfromTO]

I can only base it on dWAR since of course i have never seen Hornsby play...

Both players have a dWAR season over 3, and 2 seasons over 2,

Grich has a career 16.2, vs Hornsby's 13.9

Both of Hornsby's 2+ seasons were not at second base though.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Both of Hornsby's 2+ seasons were not at second base though.

Fair point... But unlike Cal, i don't penalize for that... Plus those 2 seasons were SS which are a more premium position... So it doesn't really change anything in my analysis...

 

[calsnowskier]

Fair point... But unlike Cal, i don't penalize for that... Plus those 2 seasons were SS which are a more premium position... So it doesn't really change anything in my analysis...

But this isnt a discussion about "the better player". This is a discussion of "the better second baseman".

I just dont understand how you can take play at SS into this discussion.

And I dont PENALIZE for play at other positions, I simply dont regard it in any way.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But this isnt a discussion about "the better player". This is a discussion of "the better second baseman".

I just dont understand how you can take play at SS into this discussion.

And I dont PENALIZE for play at other positions, I simply dont regard it in any way.

I play these as more "WHO WOULD I RATHER HAVE" than who is the "BETTER POSITION"

 

[calsnowskier]

I play these as more "WHO WOULD I RATHER HAVE" than who is the "BETTER POSITION"

I got nothing...

We are having two completely different discussions, apparently.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I got nothing...

We are having two completely different discussions, apparently.

Well, I don't really think so... Basically the only difference is that you care more about the actual position... I just care whether they were good defensively or not... I mean look at our analysis, we usually have very similar ones...

 

[obxyankeefan]

I set it up for discussions, so how each person determines who is better is up to them.

Personally I always looked at the position a player played the most as his primary position. Take his entire batting record and subtract if he played multiple positions or DH. The amount I take away depends on how much they played their primary position.

Like Milk said most of these we are coming up with the same answer, just having different ways of getting there.