Top 32 tournament 2b Collins vs Utley

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

2Basemen Bracket is:

1 R Hornsby 6
32 J Franco 0

16 J Gordon 1
17 J Kent 4

8 B Grich 7
25 J Evers 0

9 F Frisch 5
24 N Fox 2

4 J Morgan 12
29 D Pedroia 3

13 C Biggio 8
20 R Cano 3

5 R Carew 9
28 L Doyle 0

12 W Randolph 5
21 B Doerr 4

3 N Lajoie 12
30 C Knoblauch 0

14 J Robinson 16
19 B McPhee 1

6 C Gehringer 11
27 D Pratt 0

11 R Alomar 13
22 T Phillips 0

2 E Collins 6
31 C Childs 1

15 C Utley 8
18 B Herman 4

7 L Whitaker 8
26 B Myers 1

10 R Sandberg 13
23 T Lazzeri 2

1 R Hornsby 14
17 J Kent 0

8 B Grich 6
9 F Frisch 0

4 J Morgan 8
13 C Biggio 3

5 R Carew 10
12 W Randolph 1

3 N Lajoie 12
14 J Robinson 1

6 C Gehringer 9
11 R Alomar 3

2 E Collins
15 C Utley

7 L Whitaker
10 R Sandberg

1 R Hornsby
8 B Grich

4 J Morgan
5 R Carew

3 N Lajoie
6 C Gehringer

 

[obxyankeefan]

Eddie Collins Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Cuped Childs 6-1

Chase Utley Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com
Beat Billy Herman 8-4

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Had to go Utley. I just can't vote for someone who never hit more than 6 HR's in a season, DBE be damned.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Had to go Utley. I just can't vote for someone who never hit more than 6 HR's in a season, DBE be damned.

Collins was a top of the order guy, with elite top of the order numbers... Look at his BA, walk rates, SO rates and SB%, all were not just above league average, but all are near the best of all time...

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Collins was a top of the order guy, with elite top of the order numbers... Look at his BA, walk rates, SO rates and SB%, all were not just above league average, but all are near the best of all time...

I stick to my story.

 

[calsnowskier]

Collins was a top of the order guy, with elite top of the order numbers... Look at his BA, walk rates, SO rates and SB%, all were not just above league average, but all are near the best of all time...

To be fair, his SB% is actually very pedestrian. Most of his season do not have CS data, so his career numbers are bastardized. And he played in the era where SBs were "odd". We had a long discussion about this earlier in these threads.

 

[calsnowskier]

That said, this one isn't close.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

To be fair, his SB% is actually very pedestrian. Most of his season do not have CS data, so his career numbers are bastardized. And he played in the era where SBs were "odd". We had a long discussion about this earlier in these threads.

Yea, when I said SB% I really just wanted to say SBs... My fault... But doesn't really change my point...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

That said, this one isn't close.

Closer than one may think though since Utley was better defensively and hit for more power... But that is all...

 

[calsnowskier]

Yea, when I said SB% I really just wanted to say SBs... My fault... But doesn't really change my point...

If a guy does not have an "elite" SB%, he is almost a detriment on the base paths. I look at 75% on a season as my benchmark.

Further, as I said earlier, he played in the era where going 1st-to-3rd on a single counted as a SB. Hard to take his numbers seriously.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If a guy does not have an "elite" SB%, he is almost a detriment on the base paths. I look at 75% on a season as my benchmark.

Further, as I said earlier, he played in the era where going 1st-to-3rd on a single counted as a SB. Hard to take his numbers seriously.

I wish that was still a stat... I would love to know base running stats other than just SB... As I think that is actually an important stat...

running from first to third on a single, might be one of the most important things in baseball.... And getting thrown out advancing is HUGE!!!!...

 

[calsnowskier]

I wish that was still a stat... I would love to know base running stats other than just SB... As I think that is actually an important stat...

running from first to third on a single, might be one of the most important things in baseball.... And getting thrown out advancing is HUGE!!!!...

Absolutely!!

Base running is SOOOOOO much more than just SBs.

Not sure how to represent this, but somehow getting the pitchers BA against when a player is on base with an open bag in front of him. I remember Brett Butler was really good at distracting the pitcher when he was on first. Not sure if that would be a valuable stat, though. Too many other variables.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Absolutely!!

Base running is SOOOOOO much more than just SBs.

Not sure how to represent this, but somehow getting the pitchers BA against when a player is on base with an open bag in front of him. I remember Brett Butler was really good at distracting the pitcher when he was on first. Not sure if that would be a valuable stat, though. Too many other variables.

this is true too... But that is really already represented by SB attempts... You would assume anyone with a lot of attempts would make a pitcher panic a little...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

this is true too... But that is really already represented by SB attempts... You would assume anyone with a lot of attempts would make a pitcher panic a little...

But it would be nice to see # of errors a team has commited while a player is on the bases...

 

[obxyankeefan]

The weird SB stat of advancing an extra base counting as a SB was in the 1800s. Collins came along after that.

 

[calsnowskier]

The weird SB stat of advancing an extra base counting as a SB was in the 1800s. Collins came along after that.

1898...

You are correct.


But most of Collins' caught stealing numbers are lost. So my point still stands (just not as strongly).

 

[obxyankeefan]

1898...

You are correct.


But most of Collins' caught stealing numbers are lost. So my point still stands (just not as strongly).

Caught stealing and strikeout numbers are missing from the early 1900s, which does make it hard to gauge somethings from back then.

 

[navamind]

Love Utley, but Collins has peak *and* longevity. Not even close.