Top 10 poll #9: #9 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for #9 player in baseball history. Poll closes on Wednesday AM. If someone does not finish with 50%+1, another runoff will be run.

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[socaljim242]

At this point I have no clue,. They are all before my time. lol . One guy was" the man" . So maybe him.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

of these three i am a strong WJ supporter...

Musial, i am not sure if he is even in my top 15 or 20...

Hornsby is closer, but i just cant choose him over Johnson...

 

[LHG]

At this point I have no clue,. They are all before my time. lol . One guy was" the man" . So maybe him.

I'd say he is the weakest candidate of the three.

Johnson was a dominant pitcher of his era. Held the record for most strikeouts in a career for over 40 years after his retirement. Most WAR (if you consider that number reliable for pitchers) in he history of MLB. Posted an ERA+ of 47 better than average. Only about 3 other starting pitchers in history could claim better.

Hornsby has a 127 WAR, 73.9 WAR7 and 175 OPS+ (that's 75 points better than the average big leaguer) in 22 seasons (the last 6 of which he played in a total of 132 games).

Musial has a 128.5 WAR, 64.5 WAR7 and 159 OPS+ in 22 seasons. He got 3.240 more plate appearances than Hornsby and produced only a 1.5 WAR better than him. Hornsby's best 7 years were better than Musial's as well and Hornsby's OPS+ is a full 16 points better!

 

[LHG]

of these three i am a strong WJ supporter...

Musial, i am not sure if he is even in my top 15 or 20...

Hornsby is closer, but i just cant choose him over Johnson...

Agree with you on Johnson and Hornsby but, for the life of me, I cannot understand how you devalue Musial so much when you voted Mantle in the last round! I know that you valued Mantle in center over Musial in right and that you see Mantle's postseason career being of value in a tie breaker but how you can see Mantle top 10 and Musial not even top 20 is confusing to me. Their careers are not that dissimilar.

 

[calsnowskier]

Johnson is on the very short list as best pitcher ever. For me personally, Roger gets that title, but it isn’t by a huge margin, so I am OK with Johnson getting the popular nod.

Hornsby is my overall #1 of everyone still available, so of course I am OK with him being in this runoff.

Musial is down the list a bit for me, but not by a huge gap. I tend to agree that he is more in the 15 neighborhood, though, so imho, if this goes to a second runoff, Musial is the one I hope gets dropped.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Agree with you on Johnson and Hornsby but, for the life of me, I cannot understand how you devalue Musial so much when you voted Mantle in the last round! I know that you valued Mantle in center over Musial in right and that you see Mantle's postseason career being of value in a tie breaker but how you can see Mantle top 10 and Musial not even top 20 is confusing to me. Their careers are not that dissimilar.

Posted this in a previous thread... i think this is clear... and shows you that the 2 are not as close as you think...


Musial, who is not known for defense at all... can only be judged offensively...

Mantle has a pretty significant higher OPS+, and if you take both players best QUALIFIED OPS+ seasons, Mantle has 6 of the top 7... and mantle has the 2 highest...

if you take HRs... Mantle has significantly more HRs in 4 less seasons...

Sure both OPS+ and HRs are more power stats...

so really what you are looking at is BA... as mickey has a better OBP as well... Mantle had 10 seasons with walking more than 100, compared to Musials 3...

so... Mantle was better defensively, while playing a premium position, He had significantly more power... considerably had better best seasons...

and the only thing Musial has over mantle is BA...

Mantle also had 4 good post season seasons... 2 of those they won... Compared to the zero good post seasons that Musial played well in...

again... I dont see it to be close... and that is before i even put on my homer hat....

 

[LHG]

Posted this in a previous thread... i think this is clear... and shows you that the 2 are not as close as you think...


Musial, who is not known for defense at all... can only be judged offensively...

Mantle has a pretty significant higher OPS+, and if you take both players best QUALIFIED OPS+ seasons, Mantle has 6 of the top 7... and mantle has the 2 highest...

if you take HRs... Mantle has significantly more HRs in 4 less seasons...

Sure both OPS+ and HRs are more power stats...

so really what you are looking at is BA... as mickey has a better OBP as well... Mantle had 10 seasons with walking more than 100, compared to Musials 3...

so... Mantle was better defensively, while playing a premium position, He had significantly more power... considerably had better best seasons...

and the only thing Musial has over mantle is BA...

Mantle also had 4 good post season seasons... 2 of those they won... Compared to the zero good post seasons that Musial played well in...

again... I dont see it to be close... and that is before i even put on my homer hat....

Judging defense in this era is a bit difficult as the eye test was not as good as everyone thought. But let's just give Mantle the edge because he played center.

And yes, Mantle had the better OPS+. However, looking at their two careers, their OPS were not that different. Not sure how Mantle gets the significant edge in this because they were near contemporaries. Their careers overlapped for 12 seasons. I guess that Musial's early years hurt his OPS+. But back to their OPS, Musial had a career .417 OBP. Mantle's was .421. For slugging, Musial was .559, Mantle was .557. So, essentially, for every home run Mantle hit more than Musial, Musial hit 2 more doubles than Mantle. Power is a wash. So is on base. You are cherry picking Mantle's on base (and BA, where you mention it but fail to acknowledge that Musial's .331 BA is significantly better than Mantle's .298) as well.

I still think that you are putting too much into the postseason. Musial did have one good postseason in his 4 appearances but the fact that Mantle has 4 (5 actually) good postseasons has to do more with the fact that his team was stacked and Musial's were not. It seems ridiculous to me to take that into consideration unless you say that Mantle was good in 42% of his postseasons and Musial was good in 25% of his postseasons.

Lastly, lets look at WAR. If Mantle played as long as Musial, he would likely have posted a career WAR of 141.5. So, based on what you've stated and I've shared as well, I am willing to consider that Mantle is better than Musial. Maybe even good enough to be ranked higher than Gehrig. However, I don't see Musial being outside of the top 20. Looking at the players who are left, he definitely belongs in the top 15.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Judging defense in this era is a bit difficult as the eye test was not as good as everyone thought. But let's just give Mantle the edge because he played center.

And yes, Mantle had the better OPS+. However, looking at their two careers, their OPS were not that different. Not sure how Mantle gets the significant edge in this because they were near contemporaries. Their careers overlapped for 12 seasons. I guess that Musial's early years hurt his OPS+. But back to their OPS, Musial had a career .417 OBP. Mantle's was .421. For slugging, Musial was .559, Mantle was .557. So, essentially, for every home run Mantle hit more than Musial, Musial hit 2 more doubles than Mantle. Power is a wash. So is on base. You are cherry picking Mantle's on base (and BA, where you mention it but fail to acknowledge that Musial's .331 BA is significantly better than Mantle's .298) as well.

I still think that you are putting too much into the postseason. Musial did have one good postseason in his 4 appearances but the fact that Mantle has 4 (5 actually) good postseasons has to do more with the fact that his team was stacked and Musial's were not. It seems ridiculous to me to take that into consideration unless you say that Mantle was good in 42% of his postseasons and Musial was good in 25% of his postseasons.

Lastly, lets look at WAR. If Mantle played as long as Musial, he would likely have posted a career WAR of 141.5. So, based on what you've stated and I've shared as well, I am willing to consider that Mantle is better than Musial. Maybe even good enough to be ranked higher than Gehrig. However, I don't see Musial being outside of the top 20. Looking at the players who are left, he definitely belongs in the top 15.

we will see where he ranks... but you asked about Mantle... I think it is pretty clear mantle was better...

 

[Clayton]

Posted this in a previous thread... i think this is clear... and shows you that the 2 are not as close as you think...


Musial, who is not known for defense at all... can only be judged offensively...

Mantle has a pretty significant higher OPS+, and if you take both players best QUALIFIED OPS+ seasons, Mantle has 6 of the top 7... and mantle has the 2 highest...

if you take HRs... Mantle has significantly more HRs in 4 less seasons...

Sure both OPS+ and HRs are more power stats...

so really what you are looking at is BA... as mickey has a better OBP as well... Mantle had 10 seasons with walking more than 100, compared to Musials 3...

so... Mantle was better defensively, while playing a premium position, He had significantly more power... considerably had better best seasons...

and the only thing Musial has over mantle is BA...

Mantle also had 4 good post season seasons... 2 of those they won... Compared to the zero good post seasons that Musial played well in...

again... I dont see it to be close... and that is before i even put on my homer hat....

Stan has 1,600 more total bases than Mantle. Thats not a rounding error. Also missed a prime season due to the military which could have taken that total closer to 2,000.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Stan has 1,600 more total bases than Mantle. Thats not a rounding error. Also missed a prime season due to the military which could have taken that total closer to 2,000.

cause he played 4 more seasons... makes sense that he would have more total bases... thats a weird flex...

i will give you that the military took away a potential stud season from him... but that is only a factor if it was a close comparison... but it is not...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Judging defense in this era is a bit difficult as the eye test was not as good as everyone thought. But let's just give Mantle the edge because he played center.

And yes, Mantle had the better OPS+. However, looking at their two careers, their OPS were not that different. Not sure how Mantle gets the significant edge in this because they were near contemporaries. Their careers overlapped for 12 seasons. I guess that Musial's early years hurt his OPS+. But back to their OPS, Musial had a career .417 OBP. Mantle's was .421. For slugging, Musial was .559, Mantle was .557. So, essentially, for every home run Mantle hit more than Musial, Musial hit 2 more doubles than Mantle. Power is a wash. So is on base. You are cherry picking Mantle's on base (and BA, where you mention it but fail to acknowledge that Musial's .331 BA is significantly better than Mantle's .298) as well.

I still think that you are putting too much into the postseason. Musial did have one good postseason in his 4 appearances but the fact that Mantle has 4 (5 actually) good postseasons has to do more with the fact that his team was stacked and Musial's were not. It seems ridiculous to me to take that into consideration unless you say that Mantle was good in 42% of his postseasons and Musial was good in 25% of his postseasons.

Lastly, lets look at WAR. If Mantle played as long as Musial, he would likely have posted a career WAR of 141.5. So, based on what you've stated and I've shared as well, I am willing to consider that Mantle is better than Musial. Maybe even good enough to be ranked higher than Gehrig. However, I don't see Musial being outside of the top 20. Looking at the players who are left, he definitely belongs in the top 15.

i also didnt conveniently omit BA... i posted that originally in the thread where you and Cal were saying BA is a bad stat, and how OBP is much better...

so i found it odd, that the only stat that made Musial better was his BA... since the actual OBP skill of taking walks, was dominated by Mantle...

but i do agree a .331 compared to a .298 is very significant...

 

[Clayton]

cause he played 4 more seasons... makes sense that he would have more total bases... thats a weird flex...

i will give you that the military took away a potential stud season from him... but that is only a factor if it was a close comparison... but it is not...

Why is that a weird flex? Why would someone not want a great player to play 4 more seasons?

It does make sense why you're stumping for Pujols. If we just look at the first half of his career he is pretty close to top 10

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Why is that a weird flex? Why would someone not want a great player to play 4 more seasons?

they would... but you used it as a comparison with someone who played 4 less seasons....

 

[LHG]

i also didnt conveniently omit BA... i posted that originally in the thread where you and Cal were saying BA is a bad stat, and how OBP is much better...

so i found it odd, that the only stat that made Musial better was his BA... since the actual OBP skill of taking walks, was dominated by Mantle...

but i do agree a .331 compared to a .298 is very significant...

I thought you were trying to use BA in your argument. But, as I pointed out, the OBP for the two is not that different. Mantle got more walks, Musial got more hits. A difference of .004 in on base makes little difference between the two.
Again, I can see where Mantle could be seen as better than Musial but I still disagree that the two are as far apart as you claim. Mantle is arguably top 10, Musial is arguably top 15.

 

[Clayton]

they would... but you used it as a comparison with someone who played 4 less seasons....

I'm not sure what you aren't getting here. Longevity is a key component to greatness

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm not sure what you aren't getting here. Longevity is a key component to greatness

I agree that longevity is A component of greatness. But peak is more of a component, imho.

And career rate stats are next to pointless. I don’t really understand why people are mentioning them.

 

[Clayton]

I agree that longevity is A component of greatness. But peak is more of a component, imho.

I guess that begs the question: Is Bob Gibson better than Musial? Gibson is the reason for post season success.

 

[steveringo]

Big Train should've been 4 or 5....


Have I said that before?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I guess that begs the question: Is Bob Gibson better than Musial? Gibson is the reason for post season success.

i really do wonder why some of you cardinal fans have so much love for Musial vs players like Pujols... I think pujols is better than Musial... and- i will use my staple comment- i dont even think it is close...