Top 10 poll #7: #7 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for #7 player in baseball history. Poll closes on Sunday AM. If someone does not finish with 50%+1, another runoff will be run.

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[steveringo]

That is a fantastic four... Imaging starting a club with Johnson on the mound, Gehrig at first, Wagner at short, and Mantle in center?

You could fill the rest of the roster with minor leaguers and still win...

 

[redseat]

#Done
#voted

 

[msgkings322]

That is a fantastic four... Imaging starting a club with Johnson on the mound, Gehrig at first, Wagner at short, and Mantle in center?

You could fill the rest of the roster with minor leaguers and still win...

Unless the other team has Pedro on the mound, Pujols on first, ARod at short, and Mays in center. That's a good matchup.

 

[msgkings322]

That is a fantastic four... Imaging starting a club with Johnson on the mound, Gehrig at first, Wagner at short, and Mantle in center?

You could fill the rest of the roster with minor leaguers and still win...

 

[steveringo]

Hmm... I feel the need to put my thought on the value of certain positions...

If you could compare pitcher stats to other stats, and all four were equal - which player would add more value to your team?

 

[Cedrique]

That is a fantastic four... Imaging starting a club with Johnson on the mound, Gehrig at first, Wagner at short, and Mantle in center?

You could fill the rest of the roster with minor leaguers and still win...

I don't know. I feel like the Angels could still fuck that up and not win......

 

[calsnowskier]

Hmm... I feel the need to put my thought on the value of certain positions...

If you could compare pitcher stats to other stats, and all four were equal - which player would add more value to your team?

I think in general, an everyday player adds more. But at some point the advantage lessens. A player going 1-4 with a HR is probably more important than a pitcher going 6 and giving up 2.

 

[Cedrique]

I think in general, an everyday player adds more. But at some point the advantage lessens. A player going 1-4 with a HR is probably more important than a pitcher going 6 and giving up 2.

Yeah as time goes on it's getting harder to consider a pitcher comparable to an everyday player. We're at a point now where teams are afraid to use a starter more than about 200 innings in a season. And a lot of pitchers, even the best go less than that now.

 

[LHG]

I don't know. I feel like the Angels could still fuck that up and not win......

 

[LHG]

I think in general, an everyday player adds more. But at some point the advantage lessens. A player going 1-4 with a HR is probably more important than a pitcher going 6 and giving up 2.

So that brings up a question for me about WAR. Do you find WAR to be a more reliable standard of measurement for position players than pitchers? I know that much more than WAR should be considered, but if WAR is equal, or even nearly equal for pitchers and position players, would you rather have a guy whose career WAR is 166.9 but pitches every 5 days or 113.7 but plays most days of the week.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So that brings up a question for me about WAR. Do you find WAR to be a more reliable standard of measurement for position players than pitchers? I know that much more than WAR should be considered, but if WAR is equal, or even nearly equal for pitchers and position players, would you rather have a guy whose career WAR is 166.9 but pitches every 5 days or 113.7 but plays most days of the week.

WAR has its flaws for both... but it is certainly better for offense than pitching...

but really WAR is only good as a quick glance... not for a full on analysis..

 

[calsnowskier]

So that brings up a question for me about WAR. Do you find WAR to be a more reliable standard of measurement for position players than pitchers? I know that much more than WAR should be considered, but if WAR is equal, or even nearly equal for pitchers and position players, would you rather have a guy whose career WAR is 166.9 but pitches every 5 days or 113.7 but plays most days of the week.

I don’t have much if any faith in WAR for pitchers. I just think SP are SOOO different from RP and both of them are even more different than hitters. Using any kind of single number to compare them is completely arbitrary.

 

[Nosferatu]

IMO this is a little high for Wagner but I have no problem with the others being #7. I voted for #7

 

[LHG]

WAR has its flaws for both... but it is certainly better for offense than pitching...

but really WAR is only good as a quick glance... not for a full on analysis..

I don’t have much if any faith in WAR for pitchers. I just think SP are SOOO different from RP and both of them are even more different than hitters. Using any kind of single number to compare them is completely arbitrary.

Could either of you expand on why WAR for pitchers is more subjective and flawed than for hitters? WAR is a bit of a mystery for me still. I remember reading about it years ago but didn't put too much stock into it but it seems to be something of an equalizer among the different times of baseball history and a bit less subjective than comparing counting stats such as home runs, wins, RBIs, hits, IP and the like. Awards are also a bit subjective since they weren't given out for a long period of time so comparing hardware doesn't really work. If WAR ain't it (or using OPS+ and ERA+), then maybe this is even more subjective a poll than we thought.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Could either of you expand on why WAR for pitchers is more subjective and flawed than for hitters? WAR is a bit of a mystery for me still. I remember reading about it years ago but didn't put too much stock into it but it seems to be something of an equalizer among the different times of baseball history and a bit less subjective than comparing counting stats such as home runs, wins, RBIs, hits, IP and the like. Awards are also a bit subjective since they weren't given out for a long period of time so comparing hardware doesn't really work. If WAR ain't it (or using OPS+ and ERA+), then maybe this is even more subjective a poll than we thought.

you can simply see how WAR is so affected by innings pitched... problem with WAR and all advanced stats is that the people who create it weigh things the way they want to weigh it...

strikeouts and innings pitched seem to be king...

now that's not saying they are wrong... just that if you were creating your own stats it would look much different....

 

[calsnowskier]

I have no idea how to recreate WAR (either for hitters or pitchers). WAR numbers, however, tend to pass the sniff test for hitters, so I accept them somewhat blindly.

But Dennis Eckersley had 2.9 WAR in ‘92 (the year he won the CY and MVP). If we are to accept that number, than he had no business even being top 10 MVP, and probably not getting any CY votes.

 

[Cedrique]

I have no idea how to recreate WAR (either for hitters or pitchers). WAR numbers, however, tend to pass the sniff test for hitters, so I accept them somewhat blindly.

But Dennis Eckersley had 2.9 WAR in ‘92 (the year he won the CY and MVP). If we are to accept that number, than he had no business even being top 10 MVP, and probably not getting any CY votes.

The great thing about baseball is the way we evaluate players is still evolving after 150 years (and 30-40 years of computers that enable us to look at the data easier). I've changed the way I view certain stats several times over the years and my opinions of players have changed back and forth as well. Nothing is set in stone. What you may think is an absolute today could change.

 

[calsnowskier]

The great thing about baseball is the way we evaluate players is still evolving after 150 years (and 30-40 years of computers that enable us to look at the data easier). I've changed the way I view certain stats several times over the years and my opinions of players have changed back and forth as well. Nothing is set in stone. What you may think is an absolute today could change.

Nothing represents this better than the Win for pitchers or Batting Average for hitters. When I was growing up, these were the FIRST stats e looked at to determine how good a player was. Today they are hardly even mentioned anymore outside of for trivial purposes. ERA, IP, WHIP and FIP are much more important stats for pitchers and OPS is the main number for hitters.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Nothing represents this better than the Win for pitchers or Batting Average for hitters. When I was growing up, these were the FIRST stats e looked at to determine how good a player was. Today they are hardly even mentioned anymore outside of for trivial purposes. ERA, IP, WHIP and FIP are much more important stats for pitchers and OPS is the main number for hitters.

I still like wins and BA

I know we have spoken many times about this, but I am disappointed in baseball statisticians for not showing the importance of Quality start, or at least QS%...

but I do think WINS actually shows a specific mind-set of a pitcher... of course, we all understand that there is a lot more into a win and a loss.. lots of it is not up to the pitcher... but we see this all the time, sometimes a pitcher needs to only give up one run, and gives up 2.. we can say they pitched well still.. but they just didn't have that edge to them that day... and same with the opposite... like when a pitcher can afford giving up runs...

wins are kind of like saves... some pitchers have the winners mentality... some players don't... but both are mental stats more than actual pitching quality stats...

but as for BA... I don't understand the negativity... I think looking at BA and BB separately is so much better than OBP...