POLL Top 10 poll #17: #17 player in history - Runoff 2

[calsnowskier]

Players changing teams is not unheard of. If someone got an MVP or a CY against a non-existent field, so be it. He performed well in a year that no one else was able to perform well in.

And getting too caught up in the EXACT number of wins or the EXACT number of Ks or the EXACT number of CYs is kinda missing the point. Maddux won or was a top finisher in a shit ton of seasons. THAT is the point.

Just like this or any other list. Getting too caught up in the EXACT order of a list is just getting too caught up in the trees that you don’t see the forest.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Players changing teams is not unheard of. If someone got an MVP or a CY against a non-existent field, so be it. He performed well in a year that no one else was able to perform well in.

And getting too caught up in the RXACT number of wins or the EXACT number of Ks or the EXACT number of CYs is kinda missing the point. Maddux won or was a top finisher in a shit ton of seasons. THAT is the point.

Just like this or any other list. Getting too caught up in the EXACT order of a list is just getting too caught up in the trees that you don’t see the forest.

not sure what point you are trying to make with this post... i dont think anyone has said anything like what you are inferring...

 

[calsnowskier]

not sure what point you are trying to make with this post... i dont think anyone has said anything like what you are inferring...

You claimed that Maddux didn’t have competition in the NL. Then you posed the question if we should consider league-seasons as eras rather than just seasons. I am making the point that the two leagues in the same season doesn’t need any further bucketting. Defending this point, I am saying that the EXACT number of any stat is not important. They are there to give you an idea. Maybe Johnson should have won the CY form Clemens. Maybe Clemens should have won the CY from Colon.

It doesn’t REALLY matter. This player was a serious MVP level player for many, many seasons. THATS the important point.

 

[eaglesnut]

If there's a player on 2nd in the bottom of the ninth with two outs and Maddux is facing Speaker at the plate.

Then I hope the Maddux side is the team I'm rooting for.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You claimed that Maddux didn’t have competition in the NL. Then you posed the question if we should consider league-seasons as eras rather than just seasons. I am making the point that the two leagues in the same season doesn’t need any further bucketting. Defending this point, I am saying that the EXACT number of any stat is not important. They are there to give you an idea. Maybe Johnson should have won the CY form Clemens. Maybe Clemens should have won the CY from Colon.

It doesn’t REALLY matter. This player was a serious MVP level player for many, many seasons. THATS the important point.

all are just observations.... didnt say that Maddux is not my next pitcher or anything like that...

this whole experiment is also to find trends... and maybe conclude from those trends... i noticed a trend before we even got up to it... that most of our legend pitchers either came from the NL or came from yesteryear before there was much difference between the leagues...

again, i dont know what it all means... i am not going to now make Justin Verlander better than Maddux...

but again, i made it clear that going into this round i had Pujols and AROD as my next 2... that aint changing... so when i said Maddux i dont know whether maddux is even in my top 20, not sure if that even meant anything...

so again, not sure what you are trying to say...

 

[DHoey]

I'm a little miffed on this. Are you saying maddux didn't have stiff competing from fellow pitchers or the NL hitters weren't as good?

I understand that pre DH, NL lineups were different, less potent, but how big of difference is hard to quantify.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'm a little miffed on this. Are you saying maddux didn't have stiff competing from fellow pitchers or the NL hitters weren't as good?

I understand that pre DH, NL lineups were different, less potent, but how big of difference is hard to quantify.

i should not have stated that the NL sucked... that was only my AL bias speaking... but my point about competiition was more that he was not competing with any SP close to him in ranking... other than one single season vs Pedro, but that was also Pedro's emergence before he went to boston...

not even sure if that is a good point to even be making...

 

[calsnowskier]

If there's a player on 2nd in the bottom of the ninth with two outs and Maddux is facing Speaker at the plate.

Then I hope the Maddux side is the team I'm rooting for.

Using this logic, the first 150 spots, at least, should go to pitchers.

 

[LHG]

all are just observations.... didnt say that Maddux is not my next pitcher or anything like that...

this whole experiment is also to find trends... and maybe conclude from those trends... i noticed a trend before we even got up to it... that most of our legend pitchers either came from the NL or came from yesteryear before there was much difference between the leagues...

again, i dont know what it all means... i am not going to now make Justin Verlander better than Maddux...

but again, i made it clear that going into this round i had Pujols and AROD as my next 2... that aint changing... so when i said Maddux i dont know whether maddux is even in my top 20, not sure if that even meant anything...

so again, not sure what you are trying to say...

Maybe you should start campaigning for Lefty Grove? He was putting up some insane numbers while having to pitching against Murderers Row for years.

 

[calsnowskier]

all are just observations.... didnt say that Maddux is not my next pitcher or anything like that...

this whole experiment is also to find trends... and maybe conclude from those trends... i noticed a trend before we even got up to it... that most of our legend pitchers either came from the NL or came from yesteryear before there was much difference between the leagues...

again, i dont know what it all means... i am not going to now make Justin Verlander better than Maddux...

but again, i made it clear that going into this round i had Pujols and AROD as my next 2... that aint changing... so when i said Maddux i dont know whether maddux is even in my top 20, not sure if that even meant anything...

so again, not sure what you are trying to say...

I am not attacking your take in any way shape or means. I value your opinions in this project and have learned a lot from our convos here. I fully understand that you like Maddux. And I hope you understand I like Speaker. But when comparing greats, you are starting from a point that is WELL past “great” and we are really just nit picking. A perfectly good point can still take some criticism in a knowledge-seeking debate. The person “attacking” the idea is not saying the idea is bad or baseless. They are just trying to fine tune it or understand it from different POVs.

 

[Clayton]

If there's a player on 2nd in the bottom of the ninth with two outs and Maddux is facing Speaker at the plate.

Then I hope the Maddux side is the team I'm rooting for.

So we should be voting Tony Gwynn here? (He was .429 against Maddux)

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I am not attacking your take in any way shape or means. I value your opinions in this project and have learned a lot from our convos here. I fully understand that you like Maddux. And I hope you understand I like Speaker. But when comparing greats, you are starting from a point that is WELL past “great” and we are really just nit picking. A perfectly good point can still take some criticism in a knowledge-seeking debate. The person “attacking” the idea is not saying the idea is bad or baseless. They are just trying to fine tune it or understand it from different POVs.

i know you are not attacking... i just dont think you realized that my ideas were still forming.. i am not yet sure what they mean.... it currently is just an observation...

but we knew that NL was easier to pitch in than AL... but how much easier?? and does that easiness also allow for longevity??

hell, Clemens went to the NL to finish his career and dominated there too...

again, no clue what that means yet... and whether that should affect my rankings... but it is an observation that needs at least some discussion on... whether to shut it down or not...

maybe my current observations made it easier for me to pick Speaker this round, just so i can understand what it all means...

 

[Cedrique]

So we should be voting Tony Gwynn here? (He was .429 against Maddux)

Probably not. getting a hit 43% of the time is making an out 57% of the time. I'm sure he got some walks but that is just kicking the can down to the next guy, who is obviously not .429 against Maddux.

 

[Cedrique]

i know you are not attacking... i just dont think you realized that my ideas were still forming.. i am not yet sure what they mean.... it currently is just an observation...

but we knew that NL was easier to pitch in than AL... but how much easier?? and does that easiness also allow for longevity??

hell, Clemens went to the NL to finish his career and dominated there too...

again, no clue what that means yet... and whether that should affect my rankings... but it is an observation that needs at least some discussion on... whether to shut it down or not...

maybe my current observations made it easier for me to pick Speaker this round, just so i can understand what it all means...

It's definitely easier to face a pitcher than a regular hitter in the 9 spot. But on the other hand, would an AL starter have a slight advantage in racking up IP and WAR due to the fact that they don't get pinch hit for? In a game with the DH rule a starter can get beat up for a 5 spot on a couple home runs but then settle down and put in a decent start. In a game with no DH the manager would usually get antsy around the 5th inning and pinch hit for the guy to try and catch up.

 

[chappee11]

It’s probably not much of an advantage pitching to Darryl Kile and Hideo Nomo your whole career instead of Jason Giambi and Frank Thomas. It’s practically the same thing.

 

[calsnowskier]

It’s probably not much of an advantage pitching to Darryl Kile and Hideo Nomo your whole career instead of Jason Giambi and Frank Thomas. It’s practically the same thing.

Faulty logic.

Thomas and Giambi would not have been the bats put on the bench if there were no DH. They would have still been in the lineup.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Faulty logic.

Thomas and Giambi would not have been the bats put on the bench if there were no DH. They would have still been in the lineup.

I agree... but the increase in salaries probably had a bigger impact on NL teams than it did on AL... because for smaller market teams, it wasn't just the pitcher hitting, it was also that these teams had should be #9 hitters too.. so that was multiple automatic outs...

the big name bats were not the problem...

 

[msgkings322]

Doesn’t ERA+ account for the DH?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Doesn’t ERA+ account for the DH?

sure... if you like + stats, then it does... but again, how accurate is it?? I really don't believe league average is the best metric...

 

[LHG]

Wow, Speaker was off to a great start but Maddux is now making it close! This race is so intense even @calsnowskier put in his vote before closing the poll.