too soon for an NFL thread?

[puckhead]

with 7 minutes left, TB's probability of winning the game was 88%
it had been 95% with 21 minutes left

Advanced NFL Stats Win Probability - Current Games

 

[puckhead]

first down!

 

[IPostedWhat]

Damn, that sucks for the Packers.

I think this guy knew something all along.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

Don't like to see it come on a key injury like that but the Lions are tied (with Chicago and GB) for first in the NFC North 8 games into the season.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

When a team fails to score a TD with 3 attempts from the half yard line they deserve to lose. Whoever made those three play calls needs to have his head examined.

 

[Darkstone42]

Richie Incognito, Jonathan Martin, and the Miami Dolphins bullying scandal - Grantland

I can't believe people are assigning blame to Martin in this situation. You know what, never mind, I can believe it, because we live in an over-macho, victim-blaming culture across the board.

But this guy seems to get it, at least.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

I chuckled at this twitter retirement announcement (former seahawks lineman)

John Moffitt ‏@Moffitt74 5 Nov Football was fun but my head hurts-haha kidding roger goodell. I'm on to new things, thanks to everyone along the way!!!

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

Richie Incognito, Jonathan Martin, and the Miami Dolphins bullying scandal - Grantland

I can't believe people are assigning blame to Martin in this situation. You know what, never mind, I can believe it, because we live in an over-macho, victim-blaming culture across the board.

But this guy seems to get it, at least.

^^ I really have not been paying attention to the story but it sounds like a lot of stuff came out today that didn't make it nearly so one-sided as previously portrayed. Is that accurate?

 

[Darkstone42]

^^ I really have not been paying attention to the story but it sounds like a lot of stuff came out today that didn't make it nearly so one-sided as previously portrayed. Is that accurate?

All I've seen is teammates saying he shouldn't have gone public with it, or that they didn't notice anything, or that Incognito was just pranking/messing with him in good fun. But he is known to have made comments about Martin being biracial, and that is really hard to grow up with, since biracial kids tend to get the worst of racist remarks and have the hardest time "fitting in" as it were. If Martin already wasn't doing well, that would be enough to send him over the edge, I'm sure.

But most of what I've read I've perceived as deflecting blame. Martin's the one being quiet (probably because he's being treated for mental/emotional problems), so he's the easy target. If the players admit Incognito was bullying Martin, they admit they knew about it and did nothing about it.

Ireland told Martin to punch Incognito for his actions. That was the internal support he got. That's not how grown men deal with their problems, and while Martin attempted to go through the appropriate venues, they weren't available to him. Grown men also don't use racial slurs as pranks. There is no defense for Incognito.

 

[BOSSMANPC]

All I've seen is teammates saying he shouldn't have gone public with it, or that they didn't notice anything, or that Incognito was just pranking/messing with him in good fun. But he is known to have made comments about Martin being biracial, and that is really hard to grow up with, since biracial kids tend to get the worst of racist remarks and have the hardest time "fitting in" as it were. If Martin already wasn't doing well, that would be enough to send him over the edge, I'm sure.

But most of what I've read I've perceived as deflecting blame. Martin's the one being quiet (probably because he's being treated for mental/emotional problems), so he's the easy target. If the players admit Incognito was bullying Martin, they admit they knew about it and did nothing about it.

Ireland told Martin to punch Incognito for his actions. That was the internal support he got. That's not how grown men deal with their problems, and while Martin attempted to go through the appropriate venues, they weren't available to him. Grown men also don't use racial slurs as pranks. There is no defense for Incognito.

I think we need to get all the facts (if they ever come out) I was reading a story from Miami today that said the players are confused because Martin was walking around the locker room with the so called "offensive" text laughing about it and showing it to the other players. They honestly seemed confused because they are all saying this came out of nowhere. This coming from black and white players. Some of them even suggested that Martin is the one that needs help because of the sudden change in personality. Who knows

 

[Darkstone42]

I think we need to get all the facts (if they ever come out) I was reading a story from Miami today that said the players are confused because Martin was walking around the locker room with the so called "offensive" text laughing about it and showing it to the other players. They honestly seemed confused because they are all saying this came out of nowhere. This coming from black and white players. Some of them even suggested that Martin is the one that needs help because of the sudden change in personality. Who knows

People often attempt to deal with abuses by laughing it off or something similar. Incognito was kicked off of two college teams for basically being a huge jerk, and at least one NFL team.

Also, one of the big challenges of growing up biracial is that you are looked down on by both black and white people. Neither group wants you. It's pretty awful, and it doesn't say much that both black and white players are standing by Incognito.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

I also heard that Incognito and Martin were actually best friends.

Let's wait for all the facts to come out.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

BTW - This is why I don't jump to conclusions about news stories anymore (or at least try not to).

IF it turns out that Martin is making shit up, then you've wrongfully blamed Incognito, his teammates AND society in general.

If anything, everyone has been on Martin's side since the story broke. I even remember throwing in a few puns about Incognito's name.

Let's wait and see.

 

[Darkstone42]

I also heard that Incognito and Martin were actually best friends.

Let's wait for all the facts to come out.

So say his teammates, who could very well be covering their own tails for not having done anything about it/participated in it.

Martin didn't make up that voicemail. It's real. And I don't care how Martin reacted at first, nothing Incognito said in it was remotely acceptable under any circumstances. If that and the "run the train on [his] sister" comment are any indication of the way Martin's teammates talked to him in the locker room, it's no wonder he checked himself into a hospital to deal with emotional distress.

And Incognito himself has quite the history.

Everything I've seen so far has been victim blaming. Oh, they were friends. Oh, he should have stood up for himself. Oh, he's a wuss. The only "facts" we have are transcripts of actual voicemails. Everything else has been hearsay, and that's all we'll get for the rest of this investigation, I imagine.

From what I've heard from friends who have been in situations like Martins, they'll often try to laugh stuff off or befriend their bullies to try to make it go away. When it doesn't work, it's that much tougher on them. And over time, it really does mess you up.

Martin isn't doing well. And if he's making this stuff up, it's still likely not his fault. He's in a bad place mentally, and that can really skew your perceptions. It can make you distrust your friends. It can make things hurt without knowing why. It can turn friends into enemies.

And things which didn't seem so bad a month ago get to be a problem.

And you just need to escape.

And I can assure you none of this backlash against him is helping. It's only reinforcing the thought which formed in his mind that he has no real friends. That everyone's out to get him. That he was an alien in his own locker room.

Incognito is a documented jerk. But let's ignore that. Let's assume this is all in Martin's head. He still needs support, and he's not getting it, even from his teammates, his coworkers, the group of men who should be his best friends and his strongest support system besides his family. And that is also unacceptable.

There is a serious mental health problem in the NFL. It's a combination of an unaccepting, over-macho workplace environment and a high risk of head injuries and drug abuse (painkillers and the like). The players still don't get it. When you get depressed, there's nothing physical to fight. There is no "manning up." There is only suffering and hopefully finding help.

No matter what the facts are, this is still victim blaming. And that really bugs me.

 

[elocomotive]

If anything, everyone has been on Martin's side since the story broke. I even remember throwing in a few puns about Incognito's name.

Don't worry, I think they stayed under the radar.

 

[elocomotive]

Incognito is a documented jerk. But let's ignore that. Let's assume this is all in Martin's head. He still needs support, and he's not getting it, even from his teammates, his coworkers, the group of men who should be his best friends and his strongest support system besides his family. And that is also unacceptable.

There is a serious mental health problem in the NFL. It's a combination of an unaccepting, over-macho workplace environment and a high risk of head injuries and drug abuse (painkillers and the like). The players still don't get it. When you get depressed, there's nothing physical to fight. There is no "manning up." There is only suffering and hopefully finding help.

No matter what the facts are, this is still victim blaming. And that really bugs me.

Good post, Darkstone. I think you are right that it's no secret Incognito is pretty much an a'hole and that there is clearly some evidence he was over the line. But I also agree with WW that we just kinda have to wait and see what the further facts are.

I do think that most teammates are good teammates though. And that most locker rooms are where guys bond, not where they tear each other apart.

 

[Darkstone42]

Good post, Darkstone. I think you are right that it's no secret Incognito is pretty much an a'hole and that there is clearly some evidence he was over the line. But I also agree with WW that we just kinda have to wait and see what the further facts are.

I do think that most teammates are good teammates though. And that most locker rooms are where guys bond, not where they tear each other apart.

While I'm sure most locker rooms are positive places, I think there's a serious disconnect in them when dealing with mental health. They have an overwhelming macho man-up theme. Take the ribbing. Fight back.

And we're like that in our culture, too. But it's counter-productive. You can't just tell a person to push through it and things will get better. They can't believe it at that point. And it makes them feel even weaker.

We really need to, as a society, work to understand what depression is and how to deal with it. We're terrible at it right now. I'm terrible at it. It's a tough topic. But at least we need to recognize that telling people to "man up" isn't helpful.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

So say his teammates, who could very well be covering their own tails for not having done anything about it/participated in it.

Martin didn't make up that voicemail. It's real. And I don't care how Martin reacted at first, nothing Incognito said in it was remotely acceptable under any circumstances. If that and the "run the train on [his] sister" comment are any indication of the way Martin's teammates talked to him in the locker room, it's no wonder he checked himself into a hospital to deal with emotional distress.

And Incognito himself has quite the history.

Everything I've seen so far has been victim blaming. Oh, they were friends. Oh, he should have stood up for himself. Oh, he's a wuss. The only "facts" we have are transcripts of actual voicemails. Everything else has been hearsay, and that's all we'll get for the rest of this investigation, I imagine.

From what I've heard from friends who have been in situations like Martins, they'll often try to laugh stuff off or befriend their bullies to try to make it go away. When it doesn't work, it's that much tougher on them. And over time, it really does mess you up.

Martin isn't doing well. And if he's making this stuff up, it's still likely not his fault. He's in a bad place mentally, and that can really skew your perceptions. It can make you distrust your friends. It can make things hurt without knowing why. It can turn friends into enemies.

And things which didn't seem so bad a month ago get to be a problem.

And you just need to escape.

And I can assure you none of this backlash against him is helping. It's only reinforcing the thought which formed in his mind that he has no real friends. That everyone's out to get him. That he was an alien in his own locker room.

Incognito is a documented jerk. But let's ignore that. Let's assume this is all in Martin's head. He still needs support, and he's not getting it, even from his teammates, his coworkers, the group of men who should be his best friends and his strongest support system besides his family. And that is also unacceptable.

There is a serious mental health problem in the NFL. It's a combination of an unaccepting, over-macho workplace environment and a high risk of head injuries and drug abuse (painkillers and the like). The players still don't get it. When you get depressed, there's nothing physical to fight. There is no "manning up." There is only suffering and hopefully finding help.

No matter what the facts are, this is still victim blaming. And that really bugs me.

Just for the record, no way am I saying Incognito is an innocent angel. I think you know that already though.

I do hope Martin overcomes whatever he's going through. IF, however, he's coming up with excuses and these excuses wing up hurting other people - that's not cool - whether or not he was in his right mind when he did it. I think we agree there, too.

Also, you're making it sound like no one has jumped to Martin's defense. Since the story broke, all I heard was news story after news story supporting him and his case. Incognito was suspended from the team and everyone in the country believed him to be an evil fucker. It was like the Duke Lacrosse case all over again. However, I guess you're talking about different support.

What bugs me a little is when you bring up this thing about blaming society - cause guess what? That includes me and I don't like it.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

Good post, Darkstone. I think you are right that it's no secret Incognito is pretty much an a'hole and that there is clearly some evidence he was over the line. But I also agree with WW that we just kinda have to wait and see what the further facts are.

I do think that most teammates are good teammates though. And that most locker rooms are where guys bond, not where they tear each other apart.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

While I'm sure most locker rooms are positive places, I think there's a serious disconnect in them when dealing with mental health. They have an overwhelming macho man-up theme. Take the ribbing. Fight back.

And we're like that in our culture, too. But it's counter-productive. You can't just tell a person to push through it and things will get better. They can't believe it at that point. And it makes them feel even weaker.

We really need to, as a society, work to understand what depression is and how to deal with it. We're terrible at it right now. I'm terrible at it. It's a tough topic. But at least we need to recognize that telling people to "man up" isn't helpful.

In the majority of cases, it is NOT counter-productive to tell someone to man up and fight back. That's what people need to get through life. Life can be really fucking hard. I've been there more often than I care do admit. However, again, I suppose you are talking strictly about people with mental health issues.

And let's face it - a locker room is filled with football players, not psychologists. In fact, it's not at all easy for people who ARE aware of mental health issues to spot someone who IS having trouble. Let's not damn them all to Hell for doing what they think IS helpful.

My points are directed towards the blaming society thing, not about this particular case in particular 'cause I just haven't been following closely enough.