Series Thread: TkSecond Round: Pittsburgh Penguins v. Washington Capitals

[Dacks]

Man, watched that game on delay - just finished - and what a gong show.

I'm sorry, but Wilson is trash. Utter trash. Regardless of what he gets away with, he goes into every hit looking to hurt. The hit on Aston-Reese, he's launching himself upwards the whole time. If Aston-Reese isn't there, he probably sets the Olympic high jump record. And if you have a hit that results in a broken jaw, without any "material change of position" from the receiver, and you think that's clean, then your rules are dumb as shit. If Wilson concusses someone in a major way, I hope the league gets sued for one trillion dollars (insert Dr. Evil gif) based on their lack of action on Wilson alone.

Other than that bullshit, a pretty fucking exciting game. Horrible mistake by Maatta on that last play - mind you, Wilson does trip him up intentionally, leading to the 2-on-1, so there's some more of that BS reffing. (Wouldn't want to "decide the game" with a late powerplay!)

Caps are gamers, no question, Holtby's been bigger than Murray, OV is showing up, and Malkin / Kessel are clearly hurt or ailing. Crosby and Guentz the only offense Pens have right now. But at some point, a few more breaks have to go the Pens way.

Also, Wilson's trash. Can't say it enough. The only difference between Cooke and Wilson at this point, is the severity of concussions seems pretty random. Cooke's hit was also "legal", don't forget. (They're both trash.)

 

[Dacks]

True. BUT... ice has little friction. Both players on the Wilson hit tonight came off their feet momentarily. When the friction is not there on the ground, the energy has to go somewhere and players are often naturally carried into the air, spun sideways, etc. during even a perfectly legal check. It's frankly why you see ACL injuries in football all the time (energy transferred through the legs on a much "stickier" surface so the leg twists to release that energy) and why you don't see them in hockey very often (lack of friction means energy is released in any direction).

I think Wilson will get suspended because his right foot was off the ice slightly PRIOR to contact and due to the cumulative effect of the hits. Even though I thought tonight's hit wasn't as bad as last game's and per the rule, the head wasn't the "principal" point of contact.

I'm not defending Wilson. He's been a little out of control and needs a timeout. I'm just defending physics.

Don't play physics with me and Darkstone, we will destroy you.

It's nice that at least these discussions are civil, even with Caps fans. Cheers.

 

[dare2be]

Don't play physics with me and Darkstone, we will destroy you.

It's nice that at least these discussions are civil, even with Caps fans. Cheers.

You weren't here earlier.

I'd be fine with the hit if Wilson hadn't raised his shoulder before making contact in tandem with ZAR raising his head to brace for the hit. Wilson's shoulder and ZAR's head were at the same level throughout. He also followed through with extending his upper arm after the hit. Looking at the side angle, there was very little deflection off ZAR's shoulder, so the brunt of the force went to the head, even if there was some initial contact with the shoulder.

 

[puckhead]

Guys should be driving through their hits laterally rather than vertically anyway. If you're actually trying to make a hockey play, drive the player off the puck and keep your feet so you can do something. The only two reasons to lift through a hit are to make a highlight reel or hurt a guy.

wrong. hit a guy mid body and he's more likely to bounce off of the check.
Hit a guy shoulder into chest and you are above the center of gravity, therefore more likely to knock him off balance, thereby ending the play.
And when you explode through a hit (ie. get your legs into it) you add more power, and are much more likely to survive the hit yourself. Timing is important here so you don't leave your feet early, of course. a) penalty, b) lose momentum

Important rule about throwing a good body check - if you half do it, you will get utterly run over.




i say this not from physics learnin', but from on-ice learnin'.

 

[Dacks]

wrong. hit a guy mid body and he's more likely to bounce off of the check.
Hit a guy shoulder into chest and you are above the center of gravity, therefore more likely to knock him off balance, thereby ending the play.
And when you explode into a hit (ie. get your legs into it) you add more power, and are much more likely to survive the hit yourself.

Important rule about throwing a good body check - if you half do it, you will get utterly run over.




i say this not from physics learnin', but from on-ice learnin'.

That's all true; but if you miss, there should be consequences. And by missing, I mean getting enough contact on the head to break a jaw or cause a concussion.

Lifting into the hit gives you more power. It also heightens the risk of head contact. You should be responsible for the result, if you go for a big hit. But why worry? As long as you "reasonably tried" or whatever, no punishment.

 

[puckhead]

That's all true; but if you miss, there should be consequences. And by missing, I mean getting enough contact on the head to break a jaw or cause a concussion.

in agreement

 

[elocomotive]

Don't play physics with me and Darkstone, we will destroy you.

It's nice that at least these discussions are civil, even with Caps fans. Cheers.

So you're arguing ice has more friction than dirt/grass?

Proceed...

 

[obxyankeefan]

So you're arguing ice has more friction than dirt/grass?

Proceed...

Yes if the ice is thin and you have a fat ass you momentum will stop when your ass falls through the ice.

 

[Dacks]

So you're arguing ice has more friction than dirt/grass?

Proceed...

Well, I didn't actually read Darkstone's post. 'Twas more of a general comment. And he's more of a chemist anyway?, right...

 

[elocomotive]

It's nice that at least these discussions are civil, even with Caps fans. Cheers.

 

[dare2be]

Well, I didn't actually read Darkstone's post. 'Twas more of a general comment. And he's more of a chemist anyway?, right...

Well done, Eloco, pitting your opponents against each other.

There are laws of Physics, and Eloco is a lawyer...

 

[elocomotive]

Yes if the ice is thin and you have a fat ass you momentum will stop when your ass falls through the ice.

I think that's gravity or weight distribution. Not friction.

With a fat ass, the friction comes in the pushin' of the cushion.

 

[elocomotive]

Well done, Eloco, pitting your opponents against each other.

There are laws of Physics, and Eloco is a lawyer...

You can trust a lawyer, but not chemistry. Especially atoms, they make up everything.

 

[dare2be]

I don't need physics. Just optics. Shoulder came laterally into the side of the face. There was no significant deflection upward off of ZAR's shoulder. Watch the side-angle video from behind the glass.

 

[elocomotive]

I don't need physics. Just optics. Shoulder came laterally into the side of the face. There was no significant deflection upward off of ZAR's shoulder. Watch the side-angle video from behind the glass.

I think the initial point of contact was the shoulder. But that doesn't mean it's the principal point of contact either. Initial and principal aren't the same. So he could hit the shoulder first but you could still argue the head was the principal contact point. Or you could argue that it was his follow through/size/etc. that created that contact.

Like last game, I could see it both ways. But I do think the league will give him a suspension for it.

 

[Darkstone42]

wrong. hit a guy mid body and he's more likely to bounce off of the check.
Hit a guy shoulder into chest and you are above the center of gravity, therefore more likely to knock him off balance, thereby ending the play.
And when you explode through a hit (ie. get your legs into it) you add more power, and are much more likely to survive the hit yourself. Timing is important here so you don't leave your feet early, of course. a) penalty, b) lose momentum

Important rule about throwing a good body check - if you half do it, you will get utterly run over.




i say this not from physics learnin', but from on-ice learnin'.

You can hit high on the chest without launching upward, is my point. Drive forward at the shoulders, and angular motion will knock the guy off balance. Or, if you must lift, start lower than the target, and you'll have leverage. Aim high and finish higher is dangerous and literally nothing else.

 

[elocomotive]

Aim high and finish higher is dangerous and literally nothing else.

Well it is literally higher.

 

[Dacks]

I think the initial point of contact was the shoulder. But that doesn't mean it's the principal point of contact either. Initial and principal aren't the same. So he could hit the shoulder first but you could still argue the head was the principal contact point. Or you could argue that it was his follow through/size/etc. that created that contact.

Like last game, I could see it both ways. But I do think the league will give him a suspension for it.

We can argue the legalities of the hit (in the NHL's eyes) forever. And yes, you could do much worse than that in the mid-90s, or even just a few years ago. But in today's climate, hits like that don't pass the smell test.

I didn't like Wilson's hit on Dumo, because it seemed like he was going to hit him from behind anyway. But I get the concept; Dumo's head position changed at the last minute.

None of that applies to ZAR. If you can't avoid head contact on a hit without any extenuating circumstances, it should be legal. They seem to have that concept for high sticks, but somehow it escapes them for bodychecks.

 

[dare2be]

I think the initial point of contact was the shoulder. But that doesn't mean it's the principal point of contact either. Initial and principal aren't the same. So he could hit the shoulder first but you could still argue the head was the principal contact point. Or you could argue that it was his follow through/size/etc. that created that contact.

Like last game, I could see it both ways. But I do think the league will give him a suspension for it.

At best, he grazed his shoulder. Trajectory of the hit did not change nor slow down before reaching the head. So I can't honestly argue deflection or follow through.

 

[elocomotive]

They seem to have that concept for high sticks, but somehow it escapes them for bodychecks.

I wrote a whole post about that many pages ago. And I don't really disagree with you all even if I see the hit slightly differently. He's gonna get a game or two and it will be earned.

I think the difference is the assumption of intent that imports to how you view the resulting circumstances. Example - I've heard that "he was going to hit Dumoulin from behind" a few times. But he could have, and he literally didn't. He actually came wide to come alongside for the shoulder.

I like Tommy. But he's too reckless. You all see a "headhunter." I see a big hitter that isn't being as responsible as he needs to be. That inference of intent colo(u)rs how we view the result. You want call him a piece of shit, go for it. I could care less. We both agree he needs a timeout.