Time to cut Rambo?

[KickSaveDave]

OK a little Devils advocate here. But honestly MORE research should go into late round picks. That is where you find your Gems. If a guy picked in the top ten ends up in the Pro bowl, you kind of expect it at some point. And fact is, that #2 pick... EVERY ONE on the planet who follows the NFL has done some kind of research on these top ten type guys.

Bottom line is MORE research should go into later round picks, and Rambo should NOT have been starting last year or this year.

More research than what? Than 1st round picks? Never gonna happen for simple logistical reasons. More research than they currently do on late round picks? I suppose its accurate that this is what separates the good scouting departments from the bad ones.

 

[Sharkinva]

More research than what? Than 1st round picks? Never gonna happen for simple logistical reasons. More research than they currently do on late round picks? I suppose its accurate that this is what separates the good scouting departments from the bad ones.

Heck yea much more research than you put into a first round pick. You pick well in rounds 4-7 and you build a cheap AND talented team. Look at the Sea Hawks... you are not going to tell me thats blind luck the squad they have. Same for the Patriots who seem to "hit" on alot of late round talent. We spend so much time worrying about the guy who slid to the 2nd or 3rd round that everyone said should have been a first rounder, that we are actually shocked when guys like Morris and Grant show out. But think about it, back when the Skins were consistently good, we rarely actually had a guy on roster we picked in the 1st round and infact had a habit of trading OUT of the first round entirely for later round picks. The Thiesman, Williams and Rypien teams were built in the later rounds for the most part.

 

[KickSaveDave]

Heck yea much more research than you put into a first round pick. You pick well in rounds 4-7 and you build a cheap AND talented team. Look at the Sea Hawks... you are not going to tell me thats blind luck the squad they have. Same for the Patriots who seem to "hit" on alot of late round talent. We send so much time worrying about the guy who slid to the 2nd or 3rd round that everyone said should have been a first rounder, that we are actually shocked when guys like Morris and Grant show out. But think about it, back when the Skins were consistently good, we rarely actually had a guy on roster we picked in the 1st round and infact had a habit of trading OUT of the first round entirely for later round picks. The Thiesman, Williams and Rypien teams were built in the later rounds for the most part.

Well, those old teams were built without a salary cap or true free agency so its completely not applicable to today, but I agree with your point that finding gems in the later rounds is a huge key to success today.

But logistically, its not possible. There are maybe 10 players you need to scout to make your first round pick, less so if your pick is in the top 6 as its been for us several times recently. You pay them much more money, so you HAVE to get them right. You know who will be available within a much tighter target, so you can spend a lot more time on each player by the simple law of 24 hours in a day.

For 6th rounders, you have a pool of almost 800 players you have to sort through and you have no idea who will or won't be available when you pick. You cannot spend 3 days interviewing 800 players, or 40 hours of film on all 800 players.

Sure it would be nice to scout 6th rounders as if they were first rounders, but its not logistically possible.

 

[Sharkinva]

With proper scouting who cares if a guy is actually considered a top 5-10 or even 50 pick. In hind sight, do you think Morris should have been there in the 6th round?? Sure it took a little luck, but I think most teams would have picked him 3 rounds sooner if he had been properly scouted. No way in hell does Richard Sherman go undrafted. And i tend to believe the higher you pick a guy and the more resources you invest in him, the shorter his leash should be. And you never draft a guy who will be a project in your system that high. top 10-15 players should be scheme fits from jump, or move on to the next guy. If you primarily play Bump and run coverage, you dont take a 5'9" zone CB no matter how many draft reports say he is the best corner in the draft. If you play power running football, you dont draft a scat back who won the Heisman. Some guys have the talent to transcend scheme, but more often than not you either adapt to their skill set, or you are pissed a few years down the road.

 

[KickSaveDave]

I agree with everything you said but simply put, scouting is an inexact science and many teams do it poorly. We've done it poorly for a few decades at least. Some teams spend more money on scouting than others do, which goes directly to my other point that simple resource constraints prevent you from spending as many hours on later round players as you do on top picks. Some teams have real, well thought out draft strategies like the one you articulate above, others have less coherent team building approaches. Some teams emphasize production, others measurables, other intangibles. Finding the exact right blend, or knowing when to depart from your "system" to take a flyer on a player is the rub... AlMo fit Shanny's one cut blocking zone scheme perfectly, but a lot of teams probably looked at him and said "too slow, no moves, and played against weak competition" so they wrote him off their board, so yes he was drafted where he should have been. So to your point, finding players that fit your system is a key to success, something we never could do under Cerrato, because we never had a "system" for any length of time.

 

[skinsdad62]

my take is he is on the roster for now . he is a 6th rounder so by year 3 in my opinion its do or die

however in this case he doesnt play teams well and he isnt performing in the defense well enough


so you could cut him , or you take him to camp next year and cut him then

 

[gkekoa]

You really don't know what the word hypocrisy means if you think it applies here. For starters, the defense has given up 20 points but 14 of them were directly attributable to Rambo blowing a basic football play for a defender, taking a decent angle and tackling. He can't master the basics.

2nd, do you really think 6th round picks should be compared to high first round picks in terms of their development? How much scouting goes into a 6th round pick vs the 2nd overall pick in the draft? DId you raise this sort of faux indignant outrage when we cut Bolser, or Hocker, or Brandon Jenkins, or last year when we cut Jameson? Of course you didn't. Because you're just reaching to stir up crap.

There is likely an equal amount of time and effort put into all your picks. You have three months to research them and that is your job.

Show me my outrage. I won't lose any sleep over Rambo being cut...I just wanted to bring to light the ignorance you people make in arguments.

Just like your hate of Tyler Polumbus.

 

[KickSaveDave]

There is likely an equal amount of time and effort put into all your picks. You have three months to research them and that is your job.

Show me my outrage. I won't lose any sleep over Rambo being cut...I just wanted to bring to light the ignorance you people make in arguments.

Just like your hate of Tyler Polumbus.

Thats categorically false. The team interviews players at the combine. They invite a select few to come to Redskins park, and they make visits to a select few at their "Pro Day". Do you think the Skins go to the Pro Day of every small school like Florida Atlantic? The farther down the draft a player is ranked, the less time is spent on their evaluations, to the point where some late round draft picks are only scouted on film, not in person. Snyder, Allen and Shanny all had dinner multiple times with RGIII, attended his workout at Baylor, and interviewed both him and his college coaches and teammates... far far more in depth evaluation than they did for Jawan Jamison, or even Kirk Cousins. Do you think Snyder personally met with Kirk Cousins father over dinner?

Robert Griffin Jr. eases Dan Snyder's concern about RG3 choice of car - Washington Times

Also I have no hate for Polumbus, I don't demand he gets cut today.. I merely see him for exactly what he is - a fine run blocker and a poor pass protector - this is on the record here so if you're attributing hate to me, you're off target.

 

[Sharkinva]

Thats categorically false. The team interviews players at the combine. They invite a select few to come to Redskins park, and they make visits to a select few at their "Pro Day". Do you think the Skins go to the Pro Day of every small school like Florida Atlantic? The farther down the draft a player is ranked, the less time is spent on their evaluations, to the point where some late round draft picks are only scouted on film, not in person. Snyder, Allen and Shanny all had dinner multiple times with RGIII, attended his workout at Baylor, and interviewed both him and his college coaches and teammates... far far more in depth evaluation than they did for Jawan Jamison, or even Kirk Cousins. Do you think Snyder personally met with Kirk Cousins father over dinner?

Robert Griffin Jr. eases Dan Snyder's concern about RG3 choice of car - Washington Times

Also I have no hate for Polumbus, I don't demand he gets cut today.. I merely see him for exactly what he is - a fine run blocker and a poor pass protector - this is on the record here so if you're attributing hate to me, you're off target.

OK first off the owner SHOULDNT be meeting with any one, much less a players father, girlfriend, boyfriend or his childhood scout leader. When was the last time you heard of Robert Craft attending a pro day?? Hell he wasnt even at Lucks Proday if Im not mistaken, and he was the tabbed franchise future.

Secondly, if you dont have eyes on the small school guys, you are just going through the motions and accepting the popular picks as the guys you should target.

third, the Skins did actually have some one at the Florida Atlantic Pro Day. It didnt make national news obviously. But Im local to Florida. we also had some one at UCF's pro day this past draft.

In the end I think our front office and our fan base spend too much time looking at the big schools, and the top of the draft. When if you lok at it historically, we have gotten some of our best players later in the draft, and from some of the smaller programs. Its when we have gone after some of the cant miss guys (SChuler, Arrington, Howard, Gardner, etc.) that we have gotten burned.

 

[gkekoa]

Thats categorically false. The team interviews players at the combine. They invite a select few to come to Redskins park, and they make visits to a select few at their "Pro Day". Do you think the Skins go to the Pro Day of every small school like Florida Atlantic? The farther down the draft a player is ranked, the less time is spent on their evaluations, to the point where some late round draft picks are only scouted on film, not in person. Snyder, Allen and Shanny all had dinner multiple times with RGIII, attended his workout at Baylor, and interviewed both him and his college coaches and teammates... far far more in depth evaluation than they did for Jawan Jamison, or even Kirk Cousins. Do you think Snyder personally met with Kirk Cousins father over dinner?

Robert Griffin Jr. eases Dan Snyder's concern about RG3 choice of car - Washington Times

Also I have no hate for Polumbus, I don't demand he gets cut today.. I merely see him for exactly what he is - a fine run blocker and a poor pass protector - this is on the record here so if you're attributing hate to me, you're off target.

I'm glad you work within an organization to know what goes in.

Likely the head of the scouting department has team leaders that take care of different conferences and schools. Those scouts watch every game of those teams and break it down. From there, they bring note of any and all prospects they see helping the team.

You see Snyder and Shanahan meeting personally with a prospect as time and effort when the talent evaluation portion may have been less...maybe even less man hours.

Everybody who is screaming for Moses to come in and start is who I am referring to.

 

[KickSaveDave]

OK first off the owner SHOULDNT be meeting with any one, much less a players father, girlfriend, boyfriend or his childhood scout leader. When was the last time you heard of Robert Craft attending a pro day?? Hell he wasnt even at Lucks Proday if Im not mistaken, and he was the tabbed franchise future.

Secondly, if you dont have eyes on the small school guys, you are just going through the motions and accepting the popular picks as the guys you should target.

third, the Skins did actually have some one at the Florida Atlantic Pro Day. It didnt make national news obviously. But Im local to Florida. we also had some one at UCF's pro day this past draft.

In the end I think our front office and our fan base spend too much time looking at the big schools, and the top of the draft. When if you lok at it historically, we have gotten some of our best players later in the draft, and from some of the smaller programs. Its when we have gone after some of the cant miss guys (SChuler, Arrington, Howard, Gardner, etc.) that we have gotten burned.

To your point that someone from the scouting department went to FAU's pro day, it wasn't Bruce allen, it wasn't Shanahan, whether he belongs there or not it surely wasn't Snyder. So my point that the team spends more time and resources scouting the top picks vs the lower picks is sufficiently made.

I'm not arguing that success in the later rounds is not critical, it clearly is and we've clearly done a little better recently than we did for the 20 years prior to Shanny/Bruce showing up, especially the gawd awful Ceratto years. Thats not really disputing my point or making a new point. I agree we should devote the maximum possible attention to the later rounds, and build a dynasty of cheap, steal caliber talent there. But the simple fact remains and is not really debatable - all teams spend more time/energy/effort on the higher picks than they do on the lower picks. Lets move on from debating that because its a simple fact. Now if you want to change that, buy more Redskins gear and help Snyder pay for more scouts. Otherwise, simple logistics rules the day here.

 

[KickSaveDave]

I'm glad you work within an organization to know what goes in.

Likely the head of the scouting department has team leaders that take care of different conferences and schools. Those scouts watch every game of those teams and break it down. From there, they bring note of any and all prospects they see helping the team.

You see Snyder and Shanahan meeting personally with a prospect as time and effort when the talent evaluation portion may have been less...maybe even less man hours.

Everybody who is screaming for Moses to come in and start is who I am referring to.

Bro, at least Shark can articulate a difference of opinion without resorting to 10th grade sarcasm, or attempting to make my point for me, albeit extremely poorly on your part.

Since I have not screamed for Moses to come in and start, I'll just assume you're wasting someone elses time and move on.

Likely the head of the scouting department has team leaders that take care of different conferences and schools. Those scouts watch every game of those teams and break it down. From there, they bring note of any and all prospects they see helping the team.

Yes, but they go to dinner with the 1st round prospects, they invite them to Redskin Park, and the Head Coach goes to their pro day. So the level of effort in choosing a 7th rounder <> the level of effort to choose a first rounder. This debate is over!

 

[Sharkinva]

KSD... fact is there are teams that routinely hit on later round picks alot more often than the Redskins do. I dont think this is by accident, or simply logistics. I think its a mater of where you use your scouting resources. I am pretty sure that until recently we have been rather lacking in this area. And it is partially a mind set of the front office and the fan base. Snyder has played to the headliner since he took over the team, the fan base has accepted that mentality. I realize there is nothing we as fans can do to change this. And I expect that come next draft, depending on where we pick, the main focus will be on the next new shiny. But I am old enough to remember how our GREAT teams were built, an know that we are doing it exactly opposite.

 

[skinsdad62]

well here is a run down of our picks

AM 6th round helu 4th KC 4th , riley 4th , robinson 4th golston breeland 4th golston 6th a robinson 6th , paul 5th compton 6th grant 5th

that is 12 on our roster 4-7 rounds and niel 7th

how much more do we need to hit on? and how far out of whack is that compared to other teams ?

 

[Sharkinva]

well here is a run down of our picks

AM 6th round helu 4th KC 4th , riley 4th , robinson 4th golston breeland 4th golston 6th a robinson 6th , paul 5th compton 6th grant 5th

that is 12 on our roster 4-7 rounds and niel 7th

how much more do we need to hit on? and how far out of whack is that compared to other teams ?

All these guys are within the last 4 years aside from Golston. Prior to Shanahan getting here, how many 3rd-7th rounders actually contributed much less became decent starters?? Hate him all you want, Mike put this team in the right direction.... question now becomes do we continue down this path, or do we go back to the shiny new is all that really matters mentality??

 

[skinsdad62]

All these guys are within the last 4 years aside from Golston. Prior to Shanahan getting here, how many 3rd-7th rounders actually contributed much less became decent starters?? Hate him all you want, Mike put this team in the right direction.... question now becomes do we continue down this path, or do we go back to the shiny new is all that really matters mentality??

i am not hating on shanny . i think he did a fairly good job of drafting

 

[SkinFaninATL]

I have not been impressed with Rambo, so far. The play, when he whiffed for the Marcedes Lewis TD is something that I am just used to seeing from him, now. Last week, the DeAndre McDaniel was not totally his fault, but he had a chance to make and open-field tackle and whiffed. I just don't know about Rambo anymore. I have liked what I have seen out of Trenton Robinson and I like Ihenacho. I even more happy that Brandon Meriwether is coming back. I just hope he doesn't get suspended, anymore. Good grief!

 

[KickSaveDave]

KSD... fact is there are teams that routinely hit on later round picks alot more often than the Redskins do. I dont think this is by accident, or simply logistics. I think its a mater of where you use your scouting resources. I am pretty sure that until recently we have been rather lacking in this area. And it is partially a mind set of the front office and the fan base. Snyder has played to the headliner since he took over the team, the fan base has accepted that mentality. I realize there is nothing we as fans can do to change this. And I expect that come next draft, depending on where we pick, the main focus will be on the next new shiny. But I am old enough to remember how our GREAT teams were built, an know that we are doing it exactly opposite.

I believe when Bruce Allen took over, he significantly increased the scouting staff budget and added scouts, and promoted the ones with good records. I think our day 2/3 scouting/drafting has improved a ton since Bruce has been here as Dad points out some of the solid picks we are now acquiring.

Granted, virtually any untrained vervet monkey could have done better than Vinny Ceratto did, but seems to me like Bruce's FO has done a nice job... and its not all Shanny, as this years draft has some later round guys who look to be real solid players, at least a couple in Grant and Breeland. And Silas Redd was a find also, UDFA.

I remember when those old teams were built also, and while Ceratto may have done it the opposite, I think Bruce Allen more than anyone knows those days and is trying to get us back to that approach.

 

[gkekoa]

Bro, at least Shark can articulate a difference of opinion without resorting to 10th grade sarcasm, or attempting to make my point for me, albeit extremely poorly on your part.

Since I have not screamed for Moses to come in and start, I'll just assume you're wasting someone elses time and move on.



Yes, but they go to dinner with the 1st round prospects, they invite them to Redskin Park, and the Head Coach goes to their pro day. So the level of effort in choosing a 7th rounder <> the level of effort to choose a first rounder. This debate is over!

We met with much more than our first round picks and went to other pro days as well.