Thurman Munson v Carlton Fisk

[jalopy]

I know we already have a Fisk v Carter thread but I'm curious as to whether people view Munson as a better all-around catcher than Fisk. I think it is a classic Red Sox v Yankees matchup. Obviously, Munson's career was cut short and hopefully the way he passed doesn't sway any opinions.

I grew up in Detroit and started playing and following baseball in the mid 70's. With the Tigers not being very good (yet), I was a huge Red Sox fan. I loved the emotion they played with, especially after Lynn joined the team. That said, Munson was one of my favorite players ever. Definitely the best defensive catcher I ever saw. Offensively, I would give the nod to Fisk but overall, I definitely side with Munson.

 

[obxyankeefan]

I know we already have a Fisk v Carter thread but I'm curious as to whether people view Munson as a better all-around catcher than Fisk. I think it is a classic Red Sox v Yankees matchup. Obviously, Munson's career was cut short and hopefully the way he passed doesn't sway any opinions.

I grew up in Detroit and started playing and following baseball in the mid 70's. With the Tigers not being very good (yet), I was a huge Red Sox fan. I loved the emotion they played with, especially after Lynn joined the team. That said, Munson was one of my favorite players ever. Definitely the best defensive catcher I ever saw. Offensively, I would give the nod to Fisk but overall, I definitely side with Munson.

I hate this one. Growing up I was a Reggie fan, so already one strike against Munson. Then I have always thought that Fisk worked the staff in Chicago better than any other catcher I have seen. So without looking at any stats yet, my vote is leaning towards Fisk.

 

[steveringo]

 

[TDs3nOut]

I know it's a bit off topic, but the OP calls Munson "the best defensive catcher I ever saw". Was Munson better defensively than Ivan Rodriguez?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

if we are talking careers then it has to be fisk... but if we are talking about who was a better player then i would say munson...

But since i thought we were talking careers i will vote fisk, even though i am a yankee fan...

 

[jalopy]

I know it's a bit off topic, but the OP calls Munson "the best defensive catcher I ever saw". Was Munson better defensively than Ivan Rodriguez?

Yeah, I think he was although it is tough to debate for me because of the different eras. I will take a look at their defensive stats in the morning and see if I can justify my opinion with anything more than my less than objective memory.
I will say this at for similar reason I believe that Paul Blair and Dwight Evans are two of the best defensive outfielders of my lifetime.

 

[Loneranger]

Yeah, I think he was although it is tough to debate for me because of the different eras. I will take a look at their defensive stats in the morning and see if I can justify my opinion with anything more than my less than objective memory.
I will say this at for similar reason I believe that Paul Blair and Dwight Evans are two of the best defensive outfielders of my lifetime.

I can guarantee Paul Blair and Dwight Evans were the 2 best you've ever seen. Same goes for me. As for Munson/Fisk we can only compare them at the time Thurm was still with us. Munson was better period. Fisk was very good for a very very long time but he was no Munson. I watched both of their careers from start to finish btw.

 

[steveringo]

I can guarantee Paul Blair and Dwight Evans were the 2 best you've ever seen. Same goes for me. As for Munson/Fisk we can only compare them at the time Thurm was still with us. Munson was better period. Fisk was very good for a very very long time but he was no Munson. I watched both of their careers from start to finish btw.

And since you're a Yankee fan, it is safe to say you saw more of Munson - which would make you appreciate him even more.

I was born in 1971, and remember seeing Fisk, but certainly could not appreciate what he did at that time...

To understand the reality of their careers, we have their stats. For the purpose of fairness and the 'rivalry' let's look at Fisk's ten (9 full) seasons in Boston - 1971-1980 - and Munson's 11 season (10 full) career in NY - 1969-1979.

Fisk -- 1076 games -- .838 OPS -- 126 OPS+ -- WAR 39.6 (ave 4.4)
162 ave -- 95 Runs -- 166 Hits -- 32 2B -- 25 HR -- 86 RBI

Munson -- 1423 games -- .756 OPS -- 116 OPS + -- WAR 45.9 (ave 4.6)
162 ave -- 79 Runs -- 177 Hits -- 26 2B -- 13 HR -- 80 RBI


It is very sad that Munson never had the opportunity to continue his career....

 

[Loneranger]

And since you're a Yankee fan, it is safe to say you saw more of Munson - which would make you appreciate him even more.

I was born in 1971, and remember seeing Fisk, but certainly could not appreciate what he did at that time...

To understand the reality of their careers, we have their stats. For the purpose of fairness and the 'rivalry' let's look at Fisk's ten (9 full) seasons in Boston - 1971-1980 - and Munson's 11 season (10 full) career in NY - 1969-1979.

Fisk -- 1076 games -- .838 OPS -- 126 OPS+ -- WAR 39.6 (ave 4.4)
162 ave -- 95 Runs -- 166 Hits -- 32 2B -- 25 HR -- 86 RBI

Munson -- 1423 games -- .756 OPS -- 116 OPS + -- WAR 45.9 (ave 4.6)
162 ave -- 79 Runs -- 177 Hits -- 26 2B -- 13 HR -- 80 RBI


It is very sad that Munson never had the opportunity to continue his career....

It was a great rivalry between the 2. Both VERY good players on the biggest stages. Fun to watch. I give the edge to Munson becuz I loved the guy and he won. He was at his best in the biggest games and respected by all. many people will tell you where they were when JFK was shot. I can tell you every detail of when Munson died - where I was,what I was doing and then driving home asap to tell Dad. It was awful to see it all over the next few days.

 

[jalopy]

It was a great rivalry between the 2. Both VERY good players on the biggest stages. Fun to watch. I give the edge to Munson becuz I loved the guy and he won. He was at his best in the biggest games and respected by all. many people will tell you where they were when JFK was shot. I can tell you every detail of when Munson died - where I was,what I was doing and then driving home asap to tell Dad. It was awful to see it all over the next few days.

Yeah, I was almost 12 years old when I learned of the news. My father told me the news after on of my baseball games. I just remember being in shock, not completely understanding what it meant.
Like I said before, I think Fisk has a decided edge in offensive stats but Munson wins the defensive battle going away.

 

[jalopy]

I know it's a bit off topic, but the OP calls Munson "the best defensive catcher I ever saw". Was Munson better defensively than Ivan Rodriguez?

After looking at the stats and even watching a little tape, I will cede Rodriguez as the better defensive catch. The only aspect I couldn't judge them was on how they handled pitchers. I think I would give the edge to Munson but I just don't know if that is reality.

 

[TDs3nOut]

Yeah, I think he was although it is tough to debate for me because of the different eras. I will take a look at their defensive stats in the morning and see if I can justify my opinion with anything more than my less than objective memory.
I will say this at for similar reason I believe that Paul Blair and Dwight Evans are two of the best defensive outfielders of my lifetime.

I am not an expert on the matter and I am probably biased toward Rodriguez. Rodriguez has slight edges, however, in both fielding percentage and caught stealing percentage over Munson (i.e., .991>.982 and .46>.44, respectively) for their careers.

 

[jalopy]

I am not an expert on the matter and I am probably biased toward Rodriguez. Rodriguez has slight edges, however, in both fielding percentage and caught stealing percentage over Munson (i.e., .991>.982 and .46>.44, respectively) for their careers.

Agreed but American league teams put a lot more emphasis on speed in the 70's than they did in the 90's. With the exception of Henderson and Kenny Lofton, I can't think of a legitimate base stealer in the 90's.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Agreed but American league teams put a lot more emphasis on speed in the 70's than they did in the 90's. With the exception of Henderson and Kenny Lofton, I can't think of a legitimate base stealer in the 90's.

I don't know if that's true, at least in terms of stolen bases....

I just took 3 random years in Munson's career (1971, 1973, 1975), and the average AL team stole 72, 88, and 112.

Then I took 3 random years in Pudge's career (1993, 1995, 1997), and the average AL team stole 111, 95 (strike year), 107

There may not have been as many 70+ steal guys in the 1990s, but there seemed to be a lot more 30-40 steal guys that probably made up for it.

 

[jalopy]

According to the book "small ball in the big leagues", SB totals decreased in both the 90's and 00's. Not sure of the breakdown between AL and NL. Regardless both guys had quick releases and great arms.

 

[LogicMan]

Munson was a great catcher. That said, please stop comparing them offensively. During the 10 years used Munson reached a .800 OPS 3 times, at the same point Pudge did that 9 times. In fact, Pudge went over .900 3 times I believe during his career.

Munson was contemplating retirement prior to his death. He had struggled physically those final two years and his batting and on field play showed it. He was considering playing 1B or DH. He also had interest in going to the Indians to finish out the contract.

Fisk continued on, and even well after that his offensive numbers outshined Munsons. Fisk was a phenom, rugged, tough and durable, but he was without question a offensive machine and was for almost two decades.

Its not even close

 

[geneh_33]

Yeah. Munson was great but Fisk was ever so slightly greater.

 

[jalopy]

That said, please stop comparing them offensively.

Who did? I re-read the thread and found no one that claimed Munson was offensively superior. The question asked by the OP (me) was who is the better all-around catcher. It sounds like your opinion is you believe Fisk's offensive prowess offsets his defensive (relative) weakness.

 

[LogicMan]

Fisk's fielding percentage was actually better than Munsons. Please apply some logic beyond emotion

 

[StanMarsh51]

Fisk's fielding percentage was actually better than Munsons. Please apply some logic beyond emotion

Jorge Posada had a better fielding percentage than Ivan Rodriguez, and Brian McCann's is just as good.

I think that tells us how meaningless fielding percentage is for a position such as catcher, no?