Thurman Munson v Carlton Fisk

[jalopy]

Jorge Posada had a better fielding percentage than Ivan Rodriguez, and Brian McCann's is just as good.

I think that tells us how meaningless fielding percentage is for a position such as catcher, no?

I think "logicman" is a sarcastic moniker.

 

[broncosmitty]

I only remember Fisk late in his career. Splitting time with Ron Karkovice.

 

[LogicMan]

One player created 127 errors in 1278 games. The other created 155 errors in 2226 games.

Munson had the better arm, but not glove.

Offense was the big difference in the end. And may I add, Fisk never had the number of star bats in the line up to protect him. He got that production despite being on teams with less star power and talent.

Again, emotions aside, even on defense, better on offense, and much more durable and consistent.

There is a reason Munson was obsessed with Carlton

 

[jalopy]

And may I add, Fisk never had the number of star bats in the line up to protect him. He got that production despite being on teams with less star power and talent.

Rice
Evans
Lynn
Cooper
Yaz

Sorry, most of us would call those guys stars.

 

[broncosmitty]

Don't forget Baines. Or even Frank Thomas. (Only four years as teammates, still teammates.)

 

[LogicMan]

Jalopy, agreed on Red Sox, but remember his career went 24 years (69 to 93). Most was with Chicago. Yup they had Baines, but that was about it. He in fact slugged nearly 550 and had a OPS> 900 at the age of 40!

Phenom

 

[StanMarsh51]

One player created 127 errors in 1278 games. The other created 155 errors in 2226 games.

Munson had the better arm, but not glove.

You're still on errors/fielding percentage? What an awful stat.

So when Derek Jeter committed 6 errors in 151 games in 2010 and Troy Tulowitzki had 10 errors in 122 games, would you say Jeter was better?

After all, he had 40% less errors in more games 29 more games

 

[LogicMan]

Listen, I know it's an emotional issue where facts mean less. It's a sad story. But at some point, when names are removed,and the on field body of work is compared, it's not a close debate.

Yes, it's sad he died, but we should not let is skew our thinking

Btw, I understand using argument of fielding on a situational basis , over a short time, specifically for a wide ranging position like shortstop. But a catcher is placed. Range means little. The timeframe is over the career. It's a very logical conclusion built on facts, not emotion

 

[StanMarsh51]

Listen, I know it's an emotional issue where facts mean less. It's a sad story. But at some point, when names are removed,and the on field body of work is compared, it's not a close debate.

Yes, it's sad he died, but we should not let is skew our thinking

Btw, I understand using argument of fielding on a situational basis , over a short time, specifically for a wide ranging position like shortstop. But a catcher is placed. Range means little. The timeframe is over the career. It's a very logical conclusion built on facts, not emotion

Your 'fact' is an awful stat to use when comparing defense.

Take a look at their FRAAs....Munson in his career had a +32 FRAA, while Fisk at roughly the same point (1400ish games) had a +20 FRAA....what does that fact tell you?

Or are you seriously going to claim that fielding percentage gives you a better gauge of defense than FRAA?

 

[LogicMan]

Stan, you can use assorted BP statistics. In that spirit, look at Defensive WAR and overall WAR of Fisk and Munson. Fisk has a better defensive WAR.

Once again, the distance, notably on offense and then overall using these types of methods (which you know others communities refute), is huge.

Show me one reputable review of the greatest catchers of all time, based on reviews, that puts Munson in the top 10, or even 15 catchers of all time. Every single one has Fisk as top ten, some close to top 5.

Its not close, but its great drama and debate.

 

[LogicMan]

Career Leaders &amp Records for Defensive WAR - Baseball-Reference.com

Apologies, please see link of Defensive WAR. Note proximity of Fisk to Bench, and then how far below Munson is.

Then again, its just one algorithm. Basic stats align with this

 

[mrwallace2ku]

Gun to head...

Munson in a heartbeat.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Stan, you can use assorted BP statistics. In that spirit, look at Defensive WAR and overall WAR of Fisk and Munson. Fisk has a better defensive WAR.

Once again, the distance, notably on offense and then overall using these types of methods (which you know others communities refute), is huge.

And if you do know how WAR works, you would know that it is affected by playing time, correct?

An average or even below average defensive catcher can still have a positive dWAR since it's the catcher position...but how does that mean he was a better defensive catcher than Munson? Fisk from 1988 on for example had a -7 FRAA, but a +2.9 dWAR. Jorge Posada has a positive dWAR for crying out loud, and he was an awful defensive catcher.

So having a higher career dWAR doesn't necessarily mean you were better defensively...that could just mean he played a lot longer.

 

[LogicMan]

Stan, all these new metrics have flaws, even your FRAA. See link below. Point is not that Fisk was better defensively, altho some might argue that, its more that he was much better offensively, and thats hard to argue regardless traditional or modern stats.

The fact that most historians rank them far apart, is probably most telling

Trying to pick the best defensive player in baseball. | SportsonEarth.com : Matthew Kory Article


Munson was great, especially over a 4 to 5 year period.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Stan, all these new metrics have flaws, even your FRAA. See link below. Point is not that Fisk was better defensively, altho some might argue that, its more that he was much better offensively, and thats hard to argue regardless traditional or modern stats.

The fact that most historians rank them far apart, is probably most telling

Trying to pick the best defensive player in baseball. | SportsonEarth.com : Matthew Kory Article


Munson was great, especially over a 4 to 5 year period.

All the link you provided tells me is that it's difficult to use FRAA in comparing players across different positions, which I already know (an infielder is more likely to get a +20 FRAA than an outfielder for example). The difficulty comes in positional adjustments, which is always something that's up for debate.

But we're not comparing players from different positions...both were catchers, and you get a more accurate picture when comparing FRAAs of players from the same position as opposed to two different positions.

And looking at FRAA, Munson was the better fielder. So if you're thinking that it's just "emotion" that makes someone think Munson was better defensively, I'd say you're dead wrong on that...because there are valued metrics out there that say Munson was better defensively.

At the same point in Fisk's career, he had a lower dWAR than Munson had in his career, in addition to a worse FRAA....but you're holding onto fielding percent and claiming others are arguing based on 'emotion' as your main points for Fisk being better defensively? Come on...

 

[LogicMan]

Fisks career dWAR was 16 and munsons was only 11

Then again these are algorithms

Not sure why your stating Munson had a better dwar

 

[StanMarsh51]

Fisks career dWAR was 16 and munsons was only 11

Then again these are algorithms

Not sure why your stating Munson had a better dwar

You misread my sentence:

"At the same point in Fisk's career, he had a lower dWAR than Munson had in his career"

At the same point in Fisk's career would be around 1400 games, given that Munson died when he had 1423 career games (some of which were non-catcher though). Fisk at the end of 1983 had roughly1400 games at catcher, and had an 11.2 dWAR using baseballreference's version. Munson in his career had a slightly higher dWAR at 11.6.

As I showed you with the Jorge Posada example, dWAR is a cumulative stat, where you can be average or below average at a certain position (such as catcher) and still have a positive dWAR...and that's largely why Fisk has a higher dWAR, because he played a lot longer.

So Fisk up to roughly the same point in his career as Munson died wasn't better defensively, as shown by his slightly lower dWAR and an FRAA that's almost 40% lower than Munson's.

 

[LogicMan]

I think in the end we are splitting hairs on any defensive separation, and that's what I believe the stats say too. It's was the difference in offense that really separated them.

Thanks for clarity