Thornton tells Wilson to shut his mouth

[Likewall32]

As much as I'd like to see Wilson gone I'm not holding out much hope of it happening no matter what the outcome of this season. From what's been said to the media it sounds like Wilson sold Plattner on the idea that the Sharks are likely to miss the the playoffs the next few years while they transition to a younger roster. I'm resigned to the fact Thornton and Marleau most likely are here until their contracts expire.

At most I can see McLellan taking the fall for Wilson's faults. He didn't win any points when he backed Thornton and the players after Wilson made his comments.

Cmon, I find it hard to believe an owner is that stupid -- even an owner like SJs who youve said before pretty much has no hockey knowledge. He has to at least LOOK into hockey related issues and as an owner, he has to at least talk to other owners just like any other job and im sure questions of "Does your GM talk to the media or players like ours" etc have to come up... Also even if by some slim chance hes just THAT dumb, he has to see that season ticket renewals have gone down, way down.. sell outs are no more and thats money out of his pocket - Big $$ men dont like... And 3rd case EVEN if he is that stupid AND doesnt care bout money being lost... To be rich enough to own a team, he knows how things run - he isnt stupid (even though lacking hockey knowledge) he knows a business structure and that same structure works in ANY business... Take my job for example... Im a retail manager, if I get walked by corporate and my store isnt performing how they see fit, and their are issues and drama going on.. They arent going to fire my employees, its ME that gets the boot. ANY business man knows that... I could hand my corporate bosses a steaming pile of sugar coated BS, like im sure Doug is handing his boss, but ANY person that gets that high up in the ladder, sees through that... If this owner doesnt - he has to be the biggest fucking idiot, not only in hockey, but in the whole business world in general

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Well lets take a look at what's been said then and you can come to your own conclusions. Though I will say if you are trying to relate hockey ops side of the Sharks to real world business you're going to have problems.

Before the season started Plattner said he was 100% behind Wilson's plan on how to go forward with the team. He reiterated that statement around mid December.

Before the season started Wilson did his best to lower everyone's expectations by repeatedly saying they need to take two steps back before they can move forward and he labeled the Sharks as a "Tomorrow Team". He also made a point of repeating this at the STH event last week. Two weeks ago on a phone interview with Hockey Day he said the Sharks were exceeding his expectations in the standings. I'm going to repeat that since it seams pretty relevant. Two weeks ago at a time when the Sharks were 10th in the Conference and 3 points out of a playoff spot Wilson said that the team was exceeding his expectations in the standings.

I haven't a clue what that says to you but if the Sharks are out of a playoff spot and are still doing better than Wilson expected it tells me that the plan he sold to Plattner included the likelihood the team would miss the playoffs and probably do so for more than one year.

As far as what happens to Wilson, what I think should happen and what I think will happen are two completely different things. Among other things he should be fired for how he handled the Thornton situation IMO. I don't think he will be fired unless his plan to remake the team takes longer than the time frame he gave to Plattner.

 

[Likewall32]

Well lets take a look at what's been said then and you can come to your own conclusions. Though I will say if you are trying to relate hockey ops side of the Sharks to real world business you're going to have problems.

Before the season started Plattner said he was 100% behind Wilson's plan on how to go forward with the team. He reiterated that statement around mid December.

Before the season started Wilson did his best to lower everyone's expectations by repeatedly saying they need to take two steps back before they can move forward and he labeled the Sharks as a "Tomorrow Team". He also made a point of repeating this at the STH event last week. Two weeks ago on a phone interview with Hockey Day he said the Sharks were exceeding his expectations in the standings. I'm going to repeat that since it seams pretty relevant. Two weeks ago at a time when the Sharks were 10th in the Conference and 3 points out of a playoff spot Wilson said that the team was exceeding his expectations in the standings.

I haven't a clue what that says to you but if the Sharks are out of a playoff spot and are still doing better than Wilson expected it tells me that the plan he sold to Plattner included the likelihood the team would miss the playoffs and probably do so for more than one year.

As far as what happens to Wilson, what I think should happen and what I think will happen are two completely different things. Among other things he should be fired for how he handled the Thornton situation IMO. I don't think he will be fired unless his plan to remake the team takes longer than the time frame he gave to Plattner.

I see your points and agree that he selling his words well. But wouldnt Plattner realize that adding John Scott & not any draft picks or young bodies doesnt really match up with what Wilson is saying?

 

[sjrules99]

personally, i think first, todd has to go. The Pk, the annual collapses, the inability to perform when it matters or set up a leadership structure that works. Todd was locky to have boyle for his whole tenure who was basically the fireball who galvanized the team. Instead, jumbo and patty who have both proven incapable leaders were put in power by todd. He is largely to blame not only for this year, but for the choking. he's out.

As for wilson, i am torn. he has given overa decade of competitive teams. he's made some very nimble trades, and has made some brilliant moves and signings (who the hell is melker karlsson?). However, he has also really made some bonehead rentals. Maccioretty, perron, and ennis would look nice in team instead of renting guerin, campbell, and having a few years of rivet. Not to mention bonino instead of renting huskins. There were many poor moves. it's tough to say what should happen but it depends if there is someone better available. Not sure...

 

[shrksfn9192]

The Sharks have been underachievers for the majority of Wilson's tenure as GM.

 

[sjrules99]

the one thing I know for sure is whoever the next GM is absolutely HAS to get good value for the big two and HAS to get rid of them for the future of the franchise. Both need to garner a 1st rounder+top prospect+current NHLer under 25 years old. Any GM worth his salt should be able to get such a package for each one. Jumbo will garner more than patty, but even still, both should be worth a pretty package.

if the incoming GM can do that and make a few smart UFA signings, the sharks could be good within 2-3 years, and within 5 years they can be a real cup contender and be set up for another decade.

Trading Jumbo and patty will be the most important move for the next 10+ years of the franchise.

At this moment, it is pretty much impossible to tell who would deal for them since I think the market for them depends largely on the PO results. that said, looking at the UFA market (or lack thereof), its a great time to be a seller.

there are very few real premier UFA's to be, so I am sure that the market for the big two will be ripe with offers from contending teams with a little cap space who want that top 3 or top 6 forward to get over the top.

 

[sjrules99]

The Sharks have been underachievers for the majority of Wilson's tenure as GM.

Depends on how you define underachiever. They havent won the big games. that said, they have one of the longest PO streaks in any pro sport ever, and it begin in wilson's first year. Few GM's take a team near last place, and make them a cup contender for a decade starting the very next year. We have become a little spoiled and there is lots to look at that's disappointing, but very few teams have done what the sharks have done and very few GM's as well. Detroit may be hte only one.

We forget that pitt sucked for a long time. LA too. And chicago. All were absolute bottom feeders. When edmonton eventually gets good, we will eventually forget how long they sucked. Virtually every team that has won a cup in the last decade went through a prolonged sucking period and used top picks to build their winners. The sharks haven had a natural pick in the top 15 since 2003 (Couture was as a result of the toskala deal and was originally toronto's pick before wilson traded up). Its hard to build a consistent winner without top 10 picks.

Pitt had whitney, malkin, crosby, fleury, staal.

Boston had seguin/kessel, Hammel (didnt work but was a top 10 pick), Dougie hamiliton.

Chicago had kane, toews, seabrook, Skille, barker, Beach (all top 11 picks).

LA had Brown, Tukenin, Kopitar, Bernier, Hickey, Doughty, Schenn (all top 13 picks or less)

Ana had Chistov, Lupul, Smid, Ryan (all top 7 picks). More recently, Fowler, Lindholm, Ritchie (all top 10 picks).

Since the 1998 selection of brad stuart, the only sharks draft choice naturally in the top 10 was Milan Michalek (cooch was from deft trade). that's a whole generation pretty much without a nice pick and wilson still kept a competitive team for 12 years in a row.

underachieved? Maybe. But that's impressive nevertheless in terms of a consistent competitive product.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

I see your points and agree that he selling his words well. But wouldnt Plattner realize that adding John Scott & not any draft picks or young bodies doesnt really match up with what Wilson is saying?

Scott and Brown were signed with the excuse the kids that were going to be in the line up needed protection. Wilson also claimed it was an attempt to bring the players together as a team. After the PO's last year the players said in their exit interviews that they felt more like coworkers than teammates. After the Scott signing Wilson made the claim that the players felt more like a team with a tough guy in the line up. He then sighted the teams play when Jody Shelley and Scott Parker where on the team.

It's complete crap if you ask me but that's the line he gave to the public on the signings. I can only guess but it's probably what he told Plattner as well.

 

[shrksfn9192]

Depends on how you define underachiever. They havent won the big games. that said, they have one of the longest PO streaks in any pro sport ever, and it begin in wilson's first year. Few GM's take a team near last place, and make them a cup contender for a decade starting the very next year. We have become a little spoiled and there is lots to look at that's disappointing, but very few teams have done what the sharks have done and very few GM's as well. Detroit may be hte only one.

We forget that pitt sucked for a long time. LA too. And chicago. All were absolute bottom feeders. When edmonton eventually gets good, we will eventually forget how long they sucked. Virtually every team that has won a cup in the last decade went through a prolonged sucking period and used top picks to build their winners. The sharks haven had a natural pick in the top 15 since 2003 (Couture was as a result of the toskala deal and was originally toronto's pick before wilson traded up). Its hard to build a consistent winner without top 10 picks.

Pitt had whitney, malkin, crosby, fleury, staal.

Boston had seguin/kessel, Hammel (didnt work but was a top 10 pick), Dougie hamiliton.

Chicago had kane, toews, seabrook, Skille, barker, Beach (all top 11 picks).

LA had Brown, Tukenin, Kopitar, Bernier, Hickey, Doughty, Schenn (all top 13 picks or less)

Ana had Chistov, Lupul, Smid, Ryan (all top 7 picks). More recently, Fowler, Lindholm, Ritchie (all top 10 picks).

Since the 1998 selection of brad stuart, the only sharks draft choice naturally in the top 10 was Milan Michalek (cooch was from deft trade). that's a whole generation pretty much without a nice pick and wilson still kept a competitive team for 12 years in a row.

underachieved? Maybe. But that's impressive nevertheless in terms of a consistent competitive product.

I agree with you about the Sharks having a consistent, competitive product with the consecutive string of playoff appearances. On the other hand, though, they were capable of achieving much more and fell short, which has been very disappointing and frustrating to watch. It's been a damn similar script every year. The Sharks with Wilson as GM can be compared to those St. Louis teams that made the playoffs many years in a row and never won a Cup. At least this year will be different. We won't have to digest another painful exit from the playoffs. That's the only positive thing to come out of this mess.

 

[sjrules99]

I agree with you about the Sharks having a consistent, competitive product with the consecutive string of playoff appearances. On the other hand, though, they were capable of achieving much more and fell short, which has been very disappointing and frustrating to watch. It's been a damn similar script every year. The Sharks with Wilson as GM can be compared to those St. Louis teams that made the playoffs many years in a row and never won a Cup. At least this year will be different. We won't have to digest another painful exit from the playoffs. That's the only positive thing to come out of this mess.

I agree, it's eerily similar to the STL teams. The best thing that can happen for SJ in the long term is exactly what is happening.

Miss the PO's, hopefully tanking on the way down. Be nice to get a top 10 pick this year. Then hopefully pre-draft, deal jumbo and patty, landing two more 1st rounders and 2 former 1st round quality prospects.

That would give the sharks 5 new top quality prospects, not to mention whatever they can land in terms of the other picks. Basically, they'd go from one of the worst farms to one of the best.

Then, they can take the 10's of millions of cap space and look to sign a few 27 or 28 yo UFAS to good term deals to try to compete in the interim. I would target Frolik and Franson to long term deals, and then maybe try to get some stop gap help from guys like Drew Stafford, Justin Williams and the like.

If dougie (or whoever) pulled this off the dry spell would likely be only 2-3 years and the resurgence would be extreme. the farm would have:

3 first rounders in 2015
2 additional top prospects (from JT and PM deals)
several addition prospects from rounds 2-7 form 2015
Goldobin, Bergman, and several other solid potentials like chartier, lebanc, sadowy, jevpalovs, and other top 10 junior scorers as well as o'regan, a top NCAA scorer.
Mueller, Hertl, Nieto, Tierney, Karlsson, Couture, Wingels All 26 or younger.
Vlasic and Braun at 28 or younger would still be early 30's.

That's a team with a reasonable future, a potentially good farm, and if they suck for a year or two in the rebuild, they will add another couple top prospects to come of age with the rest of them. Whole the farm above would likely create a real contender in a few years, particularly with some strategic UFA signings, The whole thing revolved around deals for JT and PM and drafting wisely to add the key pieces.

I said last summer was the biggest, most important summer in sharks history. They did basically nothing. They lost a season because of it. Well... This is the most important summer in sharks history and will likely dictate the next decade. If they fire dougie, they better find a GM who can get JT and PM to waive the NTC's and get tremendous value for them. If you ask me, dougie has the best chance to do both of those things.

I would say keep dougie but only with the mandate to deal those two and get an amazing return, otherwise can him. However, if he succeeds in those two trades, then I would say to give him a few years to oversee the return of the franchise to contention. His track record has earned him that opportunity IMO.

 

[bdave]

I agree, it's eerily similar to the STL teams. The best thing that can happen for SJ in the long term is exactly what is happening.

Miss the PO's, hopefully tanking on the way down. Be nice to get a top 10 pick this year. Then hopefully pre-draft, deal jumbo and patty, landing two more 1st rounders and 2 former 1st round quality prospects.

That would give the sharks 5 new top quality prospects, not to mention whatever they can land in terms of the other picks. Basically, they'd go from one of the worst farms to one of the best.

Then, they can take the 10's of millions of cap space and look to sign a few 27 or 28 yo UFAS to good term deals to try to compete in the interim. I would target Frolik and Franson to long term deals, and then maybe try to get some stop gap help from guys like Drew Stafford, Justin Williams and the like.

If dougie (or whoever) pulled this off the dry spell would likely be only 2-3 years and the resurgence would be extreme. the farm would have:

3 first rounders in 2015
2 additional top prospects (from JT and PM deals)
several addition prospects from rounds 2-7 form 2015
Goldobin, Bergman, and several other solid potentials like chartier, lebanc, sadowy, jevpalovs, and other top 10 junior scorers as well as o'regan, a top NCAA scorer.
Mueller, Hertl, Nieto, Tierney, Karlsson, Couture, Wingels All 26 or younger.
Vlasic and Braun at 28 or younger would still be early 30's.

That's a team with a reasonable future, a potentially good farm, and if they suck for a year or two in the rebuild, they will add another couple top prospects to come of age with the rest of them. Whole the farm above would likely create a real contender in a few years, particularly with some strategic UFA signings, The whole thing revolved around deals for JT and PM and drafting wisely to add the key pieces.

I said last summer was the biggest, most important summer in sharks history. They did basically nothing. They lost a season because of it. Well... This is the most important summer in sharks history and will likely dictate the next decade. If they fire dougie, they better find a GM who can get JT and PM to waive the NTC's and get tremendous value for them. If you ask me, dougie has the best chance to do both of those things.

I would say keep dougie but only with the mandate to deal those two and get an amazing return, otherwise can him. However, if he succeeds in those two trades, then I would say to give him a few years to oversee the return of the franchise to contention. His track record has earned him that opportunity IMO.

IMO, Doug needs to go because his time is up. This has been a decade of torture for the fans and I strongly believe he will never understand what it takes to build a WINNING team. What is it with this team that makes them so lifeless?! They need an emotional Hunter Pence/Draymond Green type of player that can be the vocal leader of the group. In all my years watching the Sharks I have never once seen any kind of war cry, rally cry or desire to win the Cup. The only players that come to mind are Jeremy Roenick, Dan Boyle that ever seemed to give a shit whether they lost games.

Maybe the reason there is no captain on the team is because there is no clear vocal leader. Obviously not having a leader on this team has given negative results. There absolutely no heart/desire on this team whatsoever. And I agree with you, JT and Patty have to go... but Wilson and Mcllelan need to go as well. This franchise needs a new image, because Wilson's plan for the last decade wasn't good enough.

I understand not everyone will agree with my post, as I said it was my own opinion... I've seen how Hunter Pence and Draymond Green have played major parts in fueling their teams to victories. It's important to have players like them to help get the tempo going when the tempo isn't there.

 

[sjrules99]

IMO, Doug needs to go because his time is up. This has been a decade of torture for the fans and I strongly believe he will never understand what it takes to build a WINNING team. What is it with this team that makes them so lifeless?! They need an emotional Hunter Pence/Draymond Green type of player that can be the vocal leader of the group. In all my years watching the Sharks I have never once seen any kind of war cry, rally cry or desire to win the Cup. The only players that come to mind are Jeremy Roenick, Dan Boyle that ever seemed to give a shit whether they lost games.

Maybe the reason there is no captain on the team is because there is no clear vocal leader. Obviously not having a leader on this team has given negative results. There absolutely no heart/desire on this team whatsoever. And I agree with you, JT and Patty have to go... but Wilson and Mcllelan need to go as well. This franchise needs a new image, because Wilson's plan for the last decade wasn't good enough.

I understand not everyone will agree with my post, as I said it was my own opinion... I've seen how Hunter Pence and Draymond Green have played major parts in fueling their teams to victories. It's important to have players like them to help get the tempo going when the tempo isn't there.

While i am not disagreeing with just about anything you said, Its important to recognize where the Giants and Warriors (thus far, as they havent won anything yet) success has come from. the giants didnt win a world series for 50 years. that's a loooonnnngggg time. Although they did make the series in 2002, they chocked epically as well, and sabien was at the helm for all those losing years and all those underachieving years despite barry. The giants actually got much of their WS winning roster through the draft and with high picks due to sucking. Lincecum, bumgarner, and posey were all top 10 picks, along with Zach Wheeler. Again, a luxury the sharks have not had due to their decade+ of contenders.

The warriors have sucked for nearly 20 years. Cant look at them as a model of anything. yes, they are good now, but again: barnes, Thompson, Curry (all top 11 picks), not to mention Udoh, Obryant, Diogu, Biedrins, and Pietris all also all top 11 picks going back. that's a whole lot of high draft choices, something Dougie has not had.

it's easy to build a winner when you go through a long period of sucking. But, Aside from maybe the redwings and spurs, try finding a team that has won a championship (or multiple) without going through a long sucking period. Its extremely hard.

I also think the captaincy and leadership is a coaching level problem. if Todd had the balls to stand up to patty and jumbo and make pavs or cooch captain (or boyle) when he first came, we might have seen a different result. Now, it's time to make the sucking period as short as possible and I am in favor of whoever can do that. At this moment, I think dougie is the best candidate for that job, only because I think he may be the only one who can get jumbo and patty to waive the clause and leave.

 

[bdave]

While i am not disagreeing with just about anything you said, Its important to recognize where the Giants and Warriors (thus far, as they havent won anything yet) success has come from. the giants didnt win a world series for 50 years. that's a loooonnnngggg time. Although they did make the series in 2002, they chocked epically as well, and sabien was at the helm for all those losing years and all those underachieving years despite barry. The giants actually got much of their WS winning roster through the draft and with high picks due to sucking. Lincecum, bumgarner, and posey were all top 10 picks, along with Zach Wheeler. Again, a luxury the sharks have not had due to their decade+ of contenders.

The warriors have sucked for nearly 20 years. Cant look at them as a model of anything. yes, they are good now, but again: barnes, Thompson, Curry (all top 11 picks), not to mention Udoh, Obryant, Diogu, Biedrins, and Pietris all also all top 11 picks going back. that's a whole lot of high draft choices, something Dougie has not had.

it's easy to build a winner when you go through a long period of sucking. But, Aside from maybe the redwings and spurs, try finding a team that has won a championship (or multiple) without going through a long sucking period. Its extremely hard.

I also think the captaincy and leadership is a coaching level problem. if Todd had the balls to stand up to patty and jumbo and make pavs or cooch captain (or boyle) when he first came, we might have seen a different result. Now, it's time to make the sucking period as short as possible and I am in favor of whoever can do that. At this moment, I think dougie is the best candidate for that job, only because I think he may be the only one who can get jumbo and patty to waive the clause and leave.

Well said! Makes total sense!

 

[sjrules99]

Well said! Makes total sense!

Thanks bdave!

It's a tough thing firing a coach or a GM, because its really hard to see a better replacement sometimes. Players are different that way in that they are alot more fungible and their skills change significantly over time and younger players develop and older players age. Coaches and GM's dont really change their skills per se, so its not something you project out and wait for a coach or GM to 'grow' or 'develop' the same way as a player.

I just don't know well who is out there to replace Todd or Dougie. Todd is much more easily upgraded, as I think he has not proven to be capable of getting the most out of the players, especially when it matters, which is his whole job.

Cmon, or whoever, has there ever been a trade for a coach? I would love Tippet in Teal if the yotes are rebuilding and don't mind.

 

[Cbrower91]

Thanks bdave!

It's a tough thing firing a coach or a GM, because its really hard to see a better replacement sometimes. Players are different that way in that they are alot more fungible and their skills change significantly over time and younger players develop and older players age. Coaches and GM's dont really change their skills per se, so its not something you project out and wait for a coach or GM to 'grow' or 'develop' the same way as a player.

I just don't know well who is out there to replace Todd or Dougie. Todd is much more easily upgraded, as I think he has not proven to be capable of getting the most out of the players, especially when it matters, which is his whole job.

Cmon, or whoever, has there ever been a trade for a coach? I would love Tippet in Teal if the yotes are rebuilding and don't mind.

If Tippet were to come in here to coach the stands would look much like arizona and you dont want that, because then ownership stops putting money into the team and it will be awful for a decade. Theres rumblings hitchcock might get canned if St Louis doesnt make some noise in the playoffs this year, id rather see him over tippet a million times over

 

[sjrules99]

If Tippet were to come in here to coach the stands would look much like arizona and you dont want that, because then ownership stops putting money into the team and it will be awful for a decade. Theres rumblings hitchcock might get canned if St Louis doesnt make some noise in the playoffs this year, id rather see him over tippet a million times over

What connection does tippet being coach have with the ownership not spending? Why would having any particular coach signal that the team doesnt care? I have watched what tippett has done with underskilled, young yotes and he has definitely gotten the most of those teams. I am quite impressed with his work.

hitch would be better than Todd too, but I am not sure he would be the right coach. He's a tough cookie, while tippett is a cooler head with a better track record of handling young teams. Either would be an upgrade...

 

[Cmon_WTF]

I'll take Babcock when he come available this off season. Hitch would be okay too. I would stay away from Tippett since where Wilson is trying to go with this team and its players is not close to the style Tippett likes to play.

 

[Cbrower91]

What connection does tippet being coach have with the ownership not spending? Why would having any particular coach signal that the team doesnt care? I have watched what tippett has done with underskilled, young yotes and he has definitely gotten the most of those teams. I am quite impressed with his work.

hitch would be better than Todd too, but I am not sure he would be the right coach. He's a tough cookie, while tippett is a cooler head with a better track record of handling young teams. Either would be an upgrade...

I don't know producing teams that play for 1-0 2-1 wins no one wants to watch that shit, that's what tippet does he coaches like he played grinding, which that style is fine in the league 6-8 years ago.

They league has transitioned to teams that have 4 scoring lines almost like it was in the 80's. Obviously the defensive ability of the bottom 2 lines is still a preferred premium but they must be able to score, which has been the blueprint for the last 5 years. You've harped on it forever and its what the leagues become. Sharks are still modeled after the Detroit teams of the past with two top tier first lines and a couple of grind lines.

 

[Cbrower91]

I'll take Babcock when he come available this off season. Hitch would be okay too. I would stay away from Tippett since where Wilson is trying to go with this team and its players is not close to the style Tippett likes to play.

Question is will he become available and would he come to San jose?

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Question is will he become available and would he come to San jose?

I don't know if he will end up being available. Yes, I think he would come to San Jose.