The Song Remains the Same

[evolver115]

I copied my post from the MLB main board on here to put it on the pirates board:

What is most upsetting to me since the new regime has taken over for Littlefield with new GM Neal Huntington and President Frank Coonely, is their ability in evaluating major and minor league talent. Allow me to elaborate...

In late 2007, a decision was made amongst these two men that the only way to put a winner back in Pittsburgh was to blow up the existing major league roster. I've put together a list of players that were sent away, and what those players subsequently brought in return.

12/07 Salomon Torres traded for Marino Salas and Kevin Roberts
(pirates lost this trade)

3/08 Todd Redmond traded for Tyler Yates
(even)

7/08 Xavier Nady, Damaso Marte traded for Jeff Karstens, Dan McCutchen, Ross Olendorf and Jose Tabata
(pirates won this trade)

7/08 Jason Bay traded for Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

8/08 Jose Bautista traded for Robinson Diaz
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)

12/08 Ronny Paulino traded for Jason Jaramillo
(pirates lost this trade)

6/09 Nate Mclouth traded for Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke and Gorkys Hernandez
(pirates lost this trade)

6/09 Nyjer Morgan Sean Burnett traded for Joel Hanrahan and lastings Milledge
(even)

7/09 Adam Laroche traded for Argenis Diaz and Hunter Strickland
(pirates lost this trade)

7/09 Jack Wilson and Ian Snell traded for Nate Adcock, Jeff Clement, Ron Cedeno, Brett Lorin and Aaron Pribanic
(pirates lost this trade)

7/09 Freddy Sanchez for Tim Alderson
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)

7/09 Jon Grabow and Tom Gorzolanny traded for Jose Ascaino,Kevin Hart and Josh Harrison
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

11/09 Jessie Chavez traded for Aki Iwamura
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

It seems like a daunting task to have this many flame outs over a two year period since these clowns have taken over, but this is REAL!!!!

Our best players before Neal and Frank took over were Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, Damaso Marte, John Grabow, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson and Salomon Torres. On lesser abilities our second tier talent was Tom Gorzolanny(rotation in CHI), Adam Laroche(starts for ARZ), Jose Bautista(All-Star, leads MLB in HR's), Ronny Paulino(starts for FLA) and Nate Mclouth(bench player in ATL).

The absolute only trade of the above mentioned 12 players that brought back a return that could be viewed as a win would be the trade of Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte for Ross Olhendorf, Jose Tabata, Jeff Karstens and Dan Mcutchen. The only win was a return of two back of the rotation pitchers, a singles hitting left fielder and a unproven SP back in AAA. All other trades are failures bordering on the minor up to EPIC proportions.

The pirates may have changed the GM and President, but the song painfully remains the same.

 

[Darkstone42]

I copied my post from the MLB main board on here to put it on the pirates board:

What is most upsetting to me since the new regime has taken over for Littlefield with new GM Neal Huntington and President Frank Coonely, is their ability in evaluating major and minor league talent. Allow me to elaborate...

In late 2007, a decision was made amongst these two men that the only way to put a winner back in Pittsburgh was to blow up the existing major league roster. I've put together a list of players that were sent away, and what those players subsequently brought in return.

12/07 Salomon Torres traded for Marino Salas and Kevin Roberts
(pirates lost this trade)

3/08 Todd Redmond traded for Tyler Yates
(even)

7/08 Xavier Nady, Damaso Marte traded for Jeff Karstens, Dan McCutchen, Ross Olendorf and Jose Tabata
(pirates won this trade)

7/08 Jason Bay traded for Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

8/08 Jose Bautista traded for Robinson Diaz
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)

12/08 Ronny Paulino traded for Jason Jaramillo
(pirates lost this trade)

6/09 Nate Mclouth traded for Charlie Morton, Jeff Locke and Gorkys Hernandez
(pirates lost this trade)

6/09 Nyjer Morgan Sean Burnett traded for Joel Hanrahan and lastings Milledge
(even)

7/09 Adam Laroche traded for Argenis Diaz and Hunter Strickland
(pirates lost this trade)

7/09 Jack Wilson and Ian Snell traded for Nate Adcock, Jeff Clement, Ron Cedeno, Brett Lorin and Aaron Pribanic
(pirates lost this trade)

7/09 Freddy Sanchez for Tim Alderson
(Pirates epic loss in this trade)

7/09 Jon Grabow and Tom Gorzolanny traded for Jose Ascaino,Kevin Hart and Josh Harrison
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

11/09 Jessie Chavez traded for Aki Iwamura
(pirates epic loss in this trade)

It seems like a daunting task to have this many flame outs over a two year period since these clowns have taken over, but this is REAL!!!!

Our best players before Neal and Frank took over were Jason Bay, Xavier Nady, Damaso Marte, John Grabow, Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson and Salomon Torres. On lesser abilities our second tier talent was Tom Gorzolanny(rotation in CHI), Adam Laroche(starts for ARZ), Jose Bautista(All-Star, leads MLB in HR's), Ronny Paulino(starts for FLA) and Nate Mclouth(bench player in ATL).

The absolute only trade of the above mentioned 12 players that brought back a return that could be viewed as a win would be the trade of Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte for Ross Olhendorf, Jose Tabata, Jeff Karstens and Dan Mcutchen. The only win was a return of two back of the rotation pitchers, a singles hitting left fielder and a unproven SP back in AAA. All other trades are failures bordering on the minor up to EPIC proportions.

The pirates may have changed the GM and President, but the song painfully remains the same.

I agree with a couple, but I'll list the ones with which I don't agree.

Torres was a wash. Relievers have limited value, and he didn't have much left in the tank anyway.

The Bay trade wasn't as good as it should have been, but if Bryan Morris pans out as a #3 pitcher or better (and it's looking like he will) this trade becomes at least a wash and likely a slight win for the Pirates, especially considering how much Bay has fallen off lately, especially relative to his salary.

Burnett and Morgan for Milledge and Hanrahan was a clear win. Milledge and Morgan are a wash, each being about as valuable as a backup outfielder. Hanrahan is significantly better than Burnett, though, and is a back-of-the-bullpen arm who will likely contribute in Pittsburgh for at least a couple years, and who was one of the better relief pitchers in the Majors this year. Burnett's a mediocre lefty specialist.

Bautista was a bad move, but his performance this season was utterly unpredictable. He was intriguing and had pop, but not even the best scouts could have foreseen this. He shouldn't have been traded, no, but knowing what was known at the time, it looked like a deal of no consequence.

Paulino for Jaramillo was a wash. They both suck.

The McLouth trade was absolutely the right move. Morton's sudden regression this season was unexpected, and I fully anticipate him to have a comeback season next year. Hernandez isn't going to amount to much, but Jeff Locke is looking like a solid candidate for the starting rotation. He's been outstanding since we got him. Locke alone will likely make this trade a win for the Pirates.

The Wilson and Snell trade was a win in that it provided an immediate wash (Cedeno was about as valuable as Wilson this year, and Snell was of as little impact on the Major League roster as Clement), but the Pirates have guys in Lorin and Pribanic who may contribute positively in the future. There is certainly at least a greater chance they will contribute than Snell.

Chavez for Iwamura was a wash (they were both obscenely bad this year) and was probably worth the risk.

I think Huntington's broken even so far on his trades, but most of the value he got back we haven't seen yet. Where I do think he needs to be better is in limiting the number of trades he conducts. Trading low-value players like Bautista seemingly for the sake of trading them has been his biggest problem, in my opinion.

Also, for what it's worth, he won all his deadline deals this year, especially the Dotel trade.

 

[evolver115]

Add another failure to Bad Deal Neal's list:

Javier Lopez for John Bowker and Joe Martinez

Lopez had a 1.42 ERA and a 0.68 WHIP after joining the Giants last year.

Martinez was traded to Cleveland in January. He’s pitching for Columbus in the International League where he has 6.75 ERA in 13 1/3 innings.

Bowker was batting .235 (4 for 19) when the Pirates designated him for assignment yesterday.