The Return of the 3-3-5

[WVUDAD]

I saw with Marshall in their glory days, I saw with WVU in the high scoring offense that McGee ran, as well as the high scoring offense of 2011 and 2012, as well as MANY of the high flying offensive oriented teams, that regardless of the style of defense run, it seems to suffer as games go on, I have thought that it was due to fatigue because the offense scores so quickly and puts the defense right back on the field. When the offense scores on the third play of the series, then the other team grinds it out for an 8 minute drive, and you repeat that throughout the game, the defense is going to get tired.

 

[DCWV4life]

The defense, starting in the 2nd quarter, allowed Georgia to score 5 out of 7 times (3/3 in the 2nd, 1/2 in the 3rd, and 1/2 in the 4th). This after shutting down Georgia in the first quarter, causing 2 punts and forcing 2 turnovers. If it wasn't for the success of the fake punt, I believe Georgia had a great chance of winning that game.

This defense seems to make an average TE an All American. It appears, at least to me, that the flats become exposed by RBs and slots. The past 2 seasons was bad due to the experience on that side of the ball, depth, and coaching (DeForest for 1 season). It seemed that we were excited early last season with some of the progress made with experience and Patterson's leadership. It tailed off in the end but I was satisfied with the experience this side of the ball was getting and looking forward to what can be done with the talent brought in. As I mentioned earlier, Gibson appears to be calling this a 3-3-5, but we will soon see.

Great numbers on the Georgia game.

I dont think WVU can cover a TE in any defense they play, they might start caling us TE U!!!

I think this is going to be a 3-4 hybrid...against Bama I bet we see a more traditional 3-4, against most of the big 12 I think we will see more of the 3-3-5, possibly just in personel not in scheme. The depth they have at both DB and LB they will have plenty of options. It seems though they want guys to go fast so I doubt the play calling is going to be that complex. I wonder if this is the norm at most schools?

One thing that we have to remember is that if we did go back to the 3-3-5 we would not have to run it the same as Casteel...that defense has plenty of versatality that I do not think he ever explored, either because of talent or his own comfort level with game time calls. Maybe this is where BB's friend was going, yeah we can teach he base, but complexity of other calls slows down the players on field decisions.

No matter what defense we line up in it is going to be nice to watch how the exp has helped these players.. we are going to have a lot of guys who are not Sr's with plenty of game time under their belts...usually means good things.

LETS GO!!!!!!!!

 

[GoldRusher]

I tend to think if we are going to see the 3-3-5 it may be against teams like Bama, ISU, and possibly Texas depending on what Strong does on offense. We used it in the BE vs the run first type of teams with some success so....

Um, anyone have a count on how many days til the first game?

 

[DCWV4life]

173 days!!! It's going to be weird not being in Morgantown for the first game...but I can hardly wait.

Anyone going to the spring game April 12?

 

[bbwvfan]

And as for the learning curve, it's up to the coaches to make the players understand, and not throw more at them than they can handle. We had been told that one of the advantages of the 3-4 was that it was easy to learn...how did that work out for us?

Didn't the players remark last fall that they really felt Patterson's defense allowed them to go faster, and to think less?

Are you trying to say last year's defensive performance was a result of the players having difficulty learning it?

 

[Jeighmonee]

Didn't the players remark last fall that they really felt Patterson's defense allowed them to go faster, and to think less?

Are you trying to say last year's defensive performance was a result of the players having difficulty learning it?

I'm saying that last year's defense was supposedly "easy to learn"...and we were still ranked 101 in total D. So I think you're putting a little too much stock into just one aspect of why or why not to employ a certain scheme.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't care what defense we use as long as we have a sound gameplan, the right personnel, and our players take care of the little things.

 

[bbwvfan]

I'm saying that last year's defense was supposedly "easy to learn"...and we were still ranked 101 in total D. So I think you're putting a little too much stock into just one aspect of why or why not to employ a certain scheme.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't care what defense we use as long as we have a sound gameplan, the right personnel, and our players take care of the little things.

Do you think the defense that Casteel ran at WVU would have performed better last year than #101... considering the number of young, inexperienced replacement starters forced into action in the back 8?

 

[Jeighmonee]

Do you think the defense that Casteel ran at WVU would have performed better last year than #101... considering the number of young, inexperienced replacement starters forced into action in the back 8?

Hard to say. Maybe, maybe not.

There's too many factors that go into that type of speculation. I'll say this though, being ranked #101 doesn't leave a whole lot of room to be much worse...

 

[CoolBeans]

With the pass happy Big 12, the 3-3-5 gives us opportunities at Turnovers. Stops just don't seem to happen in College Football anymore anywhere, so playing for the turnover seems to be the next logical thing to do. It does give up scores on occasion, but the confusion it brings generally gets you 4-7 turnovers/3rd down sacks a game which helps get the ball back. I think that's what we need.

 

[WVUDAD]

Do you think the defense that Casteel ran at WVU would have performed better last year than #101... considering the number of young, inexperienced replacement starters forced into action in the back 8?

YES, if Casteel were still here, we would be on ONE DC for a LONG time, rather than a new one EVERY year, there would be some continuity on defense.

 

[bbwvfan]

YES, if Casteel were still here, we would be on ONE DC for a LONG time, rather than a new one EVERY year, there would be some continuity on defense.

So... the continuity would have overcome the inexperience?

Remember, this was a coach and a defense that gave up 49 pts to an SU team that averaged 24 for the season. And, gave up 31 out of 38... a blocked FG lead to a TD... to a UofL team that averaged 22.

 

[WVUDAD]

So... the continuity would have overcome the inexperience?

Remember, this was a coach and a defense that gave up 49 pts to an SU team that averaged 24 for the season. And, gave up 31 out of 38... a blocked FG lead to a TD... to a UofL team that averaged 22.

Where to go with that, you claim Holgorsen as a genius, yet forgive the games where the offense doesnt show up, YET you pick out a game where the defense was killed by the offense continually turning the ball over as evidence of poor defense????????? This was also a coach who had a top ten defense several times while he was here. PLUS, there would have been continuity in recruiting the defensive side of the ball. To try and say that Casteel, a proven effective DC would not have been better for WVU than the parade of DCs since is ridiculous.

 

[bbwvfan]

Where to go with that, you claim Holgorsen as a genius, yet forgive the games where the offense doesnt show up, YET you pick out a game where the defense was killed by the offense continually turning the ball over as evidence of poor defense????????? This was also a coach who had a top ten defense several times while he was here. PLUS, there would have been continuity in recruiting the defensive side of the ball. To try and say that Casteel, a proven effective DC would not have been better for WVU than the parade of DCs since is ridiculous.[/QUOTE

The situation that has occurred at WVU with regard to the DC is unfortunate. And, I understand why Jeighmonee would throw jabs my way. At CBS I was very argumentative regarding the 3-3-5, and one of the points I repeatedly made was the complexity of the 3-3-5 and why we saw such drop-offs in WVU's defensive performance. So, getting shit thrown back in my face is to be expected.

But, to be fair to the parade of DC's at WVU... they have not had time to show what they could have done with WVU's defense. Since DeForest was reassigned, I have to believe there was good cause. By buddy here in Syracuse told me what he had been told from Coach Dunlap.

We saw improvement with WVU's performance through the Okie St game, and then injuries decimated the LB and secondary. The defense lost 6 players from the secondary alone last year from the middle to the end of the season.

In the year I highlighted... 2011... WVU's defense faced the #26 ranked Clemson in Total Offense in the Orange Bowl, and #30 USF. They were the only two opponents on the schedule that averaged over 400 yds/gm. Only Clemson and LSU averaged over 30 pts/gm that season. WVU's defense averaged giving up 348 yds/gm. Is it any wonder? It faced three teams that ranked above #100 in offense... #102 Marshall, #103 UofL, and #108 UConn. It faced four offenses with rankings between #80-100 in #86 LSU, #88 Pitt, #90 SU and #99 RU.

Last year, WVU faced a total of three offenses which finished above #90... #96 ISU, #104 TCU, and #117 KU.

Continuity in recruiting the defensive side of the ball? That truly makes me LOL....
God, you crack me up. I wish you'd get a clue...

 

[bbwvfan]

Continuity in recruiting...


I am still laughing...


Dana and his staff have had to bust their ass the past three recruiting cycles to overcome the problems they inherited from the previous two HC's due to the lack of scholarship players.

 

[Slaton10]

You guys crack me up...still biatching about the 3-3 stack and Wv hasn't played it in 4 years!!!....

In more than just my humble opinion...the 3-3 stack is a solid if not spectacular defense if you have the talent to play it... The NT is the straw that stirs that drink... If he can defeat the center or the double team then the rest of the defense works and works well...see the Fiesta Bowl.....my friend BBW always complained about being exposed by a TE...well to this day...what defense isn't exposed by a TE...See Tony Gonzales...Heath Miller...Antonio Gates...etc...it's a tough assignment for any defense...but I digress..

 

[Slaton10]

Where to go with that, you claim Holgorsen as a genius, yet forgive the games where the offense doesnt show up, YET you pick out a game where the defense was killed by the offense continually turning the ball over as evidence of poor defense????????? This was also a coach who had a top ten defense several times while he was here. PLUS, there would have been continuity in recruiting the defensive side of the ball. To try and say that Casteel, a proven effective DC would not have been better for WVU than the parade of DCs since is ridiculous.

DAD I have to ask you...you keep blaming DH when the offense doesn't show up...can't understand it really....it comes across the way you message is that no matter what lack of talent Wv throws out there..DH should still find a way to put up 60 points a game...

 

[bbwvfan]

You guys crack me up...still biatching about the 3-3 stack and Wv hasn't played it in 4 years!!!....

In more than just my humble opinion...the 3-3 stack is a solid if not spectacular defense if you have the talent to play it... The NT is the straw that stirs that drink... If he can defeat the center or the double team then the rest of the defense works and works well...see the Fiesta Bowl.....my friend BBW always complained about being exposed by a TE...well to this day...what defense isn't exposed by a TE...See Tony Gonzales...Heath Miller...Antonio Gates...etc...it's a tough assignment for any defense...but I digress..

WVU does not like to cover TE's...

 

[Mike]

If the 3-3-5 was so good, why isn't there more teams using it?

I think it works good every 4 years, then there is 2 years that are really down. The third year it is mediocre.

 

[Jeighmonee]

The situation that has occurred at WVU with regard to the DC is unfortunate. And, I understand why Jeighmonee would throw jabs my way. At CBS I was very argumentative regarding the 3-3-5, and one of the points I repeatedly made was the complexity of the 3-3-5 and why we saw such drop-offs in WVU's defensive performance. So, getting shit thrown back in my face is to be expected.

Your argument that any defense is too complex is just strange to me, and always has been. These guys aren't playing Pop Warner. If the kids don't understand a certain thing that is being asked of them, it's the coach's job to either make it make sense to them, or scrap the idea. That's what they get paid to do. And that goes for the 3-3, 4-3, 3-4 or any other look.

But, to be fair to the parade of DC's at WVU... they have not had time to show what they could have done with WVU's defense. Since DeForest was reassigned, I have to believe there was good cause. By buddy here in Syracuse told me what he had been told from Coach Dunlap.

To be fair?

Let's see...DeForrest would have had plenty of time to show what he could have done with WVU's defense...if he didn't have them setting records for all-time worst performances. You think the fair thing to do would be to keep him in place another year? You think he was ready for the big time?

Under Patterson the unit showed improvement, but they were also a group with more reps under their belts, so of course they would be better (plus, let's face it, they couldn't be much worse). Ultimately they got whacked with some injuries, and fell apart. But hey, that's football. Injuries are a part of the game.

And DeForrest being reassigned to more than just ST's only proves that he's a capable position coach (and I do believe he is a pretty good DB coach) - nothing more.

We saw improvement with WVU's performance through the Okie St game, and then injuries decimated the LB and secondary. The defense lost 6 players from the secondary alone last year from the middle to the end of the season.

It happens.

In the year I highlighted... 2011... WVU's defense faced the #26 ranked Clemson in Total Offense in the Orange Bowl, and #30 USF. They were the only two opponents on the schedule that averaged over 400 yds/gm. Only Clemson and LSU averaged over 30 pts/gm that season. WVU's defense averaged giving up 348 yds/gm. Is it any wonder? It faced three teams that ranked above #100 in offense... #102 Marshall, #103 UofL, and #108 UConn. It faced four offenses with rankings between #80-100 in #86 LSU, #88 Pitt, #90 SU and #99 RU.

Last year, WVU faced a total of three offenses which finished above #90... #96 ISU, #104 TCU, and #117 KU.

You can only play the teams on your schedule. Casteel and his defense contributed to way more wins than losses. Call me crazy, but I'd rather give up 2000 yards, and 100 points in a game and win, than 50 yards and 3 points in a game, and lose. But hey, that's just me. Shutouts are hard to come by...especially in our league. You may require stellar defensive stats game in and game out, but all I want is to hold our opponents to less points than us.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what defense WVU runs, whether it be the stack, the 3-4, the 4-3 or whatever. There are so many contributing factors that go into whether a D is successful or not - injuries, coaching, recruiting, discipline, experience, attention to detail, etc. BB you and I have gone back and forth about the Stack for years, and not once have you ever heard me profess my love for it, or even say I prefer it over anything else...because I don't.

But I've always had to speak up in support of it because, from a fundamental football standpoint, it's a fine scheme capable of getting the job done. If we do go back to it (and I'll only believe it when I see it) and have some success, you won't see me throwing jabs at you, or throwing crap in your face. I'll just be happy that our team is competing and winning more regularly. That's it.

 

[Jeighmonee]

WVU does not like to cover TE's...

I think Jace Amaro would agree.