THE PAC12 THREAD v.4

[TheRobotDevil]

My guess is that 'The Independent Thread' would probably look a lot like 'The Fighting Irish Thread' with possibly a smidgen of Cougs and Black Knights maybe a Minutemen but I doubt it.

Its that time of the year for PAC conference play and we know how thats been. Good luck to your Bruins vs Stanford Vitamike

 

[Lions=TeHsUcKs]

Is there a shot Utah blows USC's back out this weekend and Helton is fired on the spot?

 

[WizardHawk]

Is there a shot Utah blows USC's back out this weekend and Helton is fired on the spot?

Not unless he pulls a drunk Sark.

I'm not buying into Utah just yet as it is so I wouldn't be surprised to see USC win that game, but even a loss isn't likely to do anything more to his tenure.

 

[trojanfan12]

Not unless he pulls a drunk Sark.

I'm not buying into Utah just yet as it is so I wouldn't be surprised to see USC win that game, but even a loss isn't likely to do anything more to his tenure.

The only thing (outside of a Sark after Dark episode) that could get him fired, imo, is if Swann doesn't like him and decides "he wasn't my guy anyway." I expect though, that Swann will give him a fair shot.

People forget that in his first season as coach, Pete Carroll started out 2-5. I'm not saying that Helton is going to be Carrollv2.0, but like Carroll, he's trying to remake the team. USC went pass heavy during the Kiffin/Sark years and Helton is trying to get us back to a run first mentality.

Folks forget that all of the success that USC had during the Pete Carroll era was built on the run game. We had great offensive lines, great running backs and everything else fell into place from there.

 

[Olyduck]

Is there a shot Utah blows USC's back out this weekend and Helton is fired on the spot?

blow out? no. can they win? yes

 

[WizardHawk]

I agree. Helton is going to get time to rebuild that program. You can't have sweeping change and not have bumps in the road. Happens to most that go through it.

 

[Lions=TeHsUcKs]

The only thing (outside of a Sark after Dark episode) that could get him fired, imo, is if Swann doesn't like him and decides "he wasn't my guy anyway." I expect though, that Swann will give him a fair shot.

People forget that in his first season as coach, Pete Carroll started out 2-5. I'm not saying that Helton is going to be Carrollv2.0, but like Carroll, he's trying to remake the team. USC went pass heavy during the Kiffin/Sark years and Helton is trying to get us back to a run first mentality.

Folks forget that all of the success that USC had during the Pete Carroll era was built on the run game. We had great offensive lines, great running backs and everything else fell into place from there.

Half the fanbase on the USC boards I lurk want him gone this year and are comparing him to Hackett. Maybe they are out of touch though.

 

[WizardHawk]

Half the fanbase on the USC boards I lurk want him gone this year and are comparing him to Hackett. Maybe they are out of touch though.

If coaching changes were decided by fans almost no team would have the same coach for more than 3-4 years.

 

[trojanfan12]

Half the fanbase on the USC boards I lurk want him gone this year and are comparing him to Hackett. Maybe they are out of touch though.

More than half the fanbase wanted Carroll gone before he coached his first game. When his hiring was announced, USC fans and alumni burned down the USC switchboard. I can't imagine what it would have looked like if social media existed. Then, when he started 2-5, lynch mobs were forming. It would have sucked if the admins had listened to the fans back then.

Admittedly, Carroll did have the advantage of having been hired by the AD that everyone was complaining to. Helton doesn't have that luxury.

I tend to be a little more patient and think a guy should get at least 3 seasons to get his players in and his culture established.

 

[Vitamike]

@Vitamike - How are you feeling ahead of Stanford?

Its that time of the year for PAC conference play and we know how thats been. Good luck to your Bruins vs Stanford Vitamike

While UCLA holds the all time record 45-39-3. The Bruins have fallen short in their last 8 tries. (Had to look it up) I think it's going to go to 9 this weekend, and Vegas agrees as the Bruins are 3 point dogs at home.

I mean the Bruins could get some breaks that go our way and win the game, don't get me wrong but they're not very good against the run and Stanford has a big O line and an alright RB. <sarcasm>

I mean Mora has failed of recent vs the bigger CFB teams in trenches (See Nebraska, USC, Stanford) That is the main reason Mora has changed his style of offense, so they can compete in the trenches with greater consistency. They're just not there yet.

 

[WizardHawk]

While UCLA holds the all time record 45-39-3. The Bruins have fallen short in their last 8 tries. (Had to look it up) I think it's going to go to 9 this weekend, and Vegas agrees as the Bruins are 3 point dogs at home.

I mean the Bruins could get some breaks that go our way and win the game, don't get me wrong but they're not very good against the run and Stanford has a big O line and an alright RB. <sarcasm>

I mean Mora has failed of recent vs the bigger CFB teams in trenches (See Nebraska, USC, Stanford) That is the main reason Mora has changed his style of offense, so they can compete in the trenches with greater consistency. They're just not there yet.

Everybody up here in the media and whatnot want Stanford to win that game. Fuck that Go Bruins!

 

[TheRobotDevil]

While UCLA holds the all time record 45-39-3. The Bruins have fallen short in their last 8 tries. (Had to look it up) I think it's going to go to 9 this weekend, and Vegas agrees as the Bruins are 3 point dogs at home.

I mean the Bruins could get some breaks that go our way and win the game, don't get me wrong but they're not very good against the run and Stanford has a big O line and an alright RB. <sarcasm>

I mean Mora has failed of recent vs the bigger CFB teams in trenches (See Nebraska, USC, Stanford) That is the main reason Mora has changed his style of offense, so they can compete in the trenches with greater consistency. They're just not there yet.

I'll be rooting for the Bruins this week. May as well keep the PAC parity going. And you guys have a classy fan base. SC didn't look as bad this year vs Stanford.One of the Stanford TD's came off of a busted coverage vs SC. If the bruins can keep Rector in check. Keep a shadow on McCaffery. Pressure burns and keep him out of rhythm and cover check downs.Avoid costly penalties unlike SC they were very undisciplined again. And play consistently on Offense. Especially in the run game where lanes were open. I could very well see UCLA pulling the upset.

 

[Eco]

I am just not sure if/when we see the Rosen we all expected to see.

If she wakes up, then Bruins definitely have a chance, but he is doesn't come out of hibernation, then UCLA may be in trouble.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Bruins win

 

[SUBuddha]

If coaching changes were decided by fans almost no team would have the same coach for more than 3-4 years.

100x this. After Shaw went 8-5 in 2014 and lost to NW last year there was a burning pitchfork party on some of the Stanford boards.

 

[Vitamike]

More than half the fanbase wanted Carroll gone before he coached his first game. When his hiring was announced, USC fans and alumni burned down the USC switchboard. I can't imagine what it would have looked like if social media existed. Then, when he started 2-5, lynch mobs were forming. It would have sucked if the admins had listened to the fans back then.

Admittedly, Carroll did have the advantage of having been hired by the AD that everyone was complaining to. Helton doesn't have that luxury.

I tend to be a little more patient and think a guy should get at least 3 seasons to get his players in and his culture established.

A loss @Utah this week will be a tough start for the USC faithful no doubt, but if the Trojans lose, they will most likely have lost to three 4-0 teams, two will be top 10 or better however all will be losses to ranked teams.

The problem I see with Helton, besides the point you make here TF, the Trojans won the PAC South last year and have done really well recruiting despite the turnover since Kiffen. How many steps back is too many with Helton? I think if he suffers a loss from the Utes, the game needs to be competitive. Another double digit loss or blow out will start a serious narrative among those who matter IMO.

Also the record this year vs Oregon, UCLA or ND will contribute one way or the other to the narrative helping or hurting his future at USC.

 

[trojanfan12]

A loss @Utah this week will be a tough start for the USC faithful no doubt, but if the Trojans lose, they will most likely have lost to three 4-0 teams, two will be top 10 or better however all will be losses to ranked teams.

The problem I see with Helton, besides the point you make here TF, the Trojans won the PAC South last year and have done really well recruiting despite the turnover since Kiffen. How many steps back is too many with Helton? I think if he suffers a loss from the Utes, the game needs to be competitive. Another double digit loss or blow out will start a serious narrative among those who matter IMO.

Also the record this year vs Oregon, UCLA or ND will contribute one way or the other to the narrative helping or hurting his future at USC.

Yeah, the fact that USC has the #1 SOS in the country should be taken into consideration, imo. It would be one thing to start 1-3, but when the 3 losses are all to teams that are ranked and were favored to win, that has to be looked at.

Yes, USC won the South last year, but we also had a more experienced team than we have this year. That's why I was saying before the season that I would feel a lot more comfortable with the schedule if we were playing it next year. Brand new starting qb and 6 of the defensive front 7 making their first starts isn't how you want to go into a schedule like this.

Yes, we've done well in recruiting, but while we have been able to get top recruits, we haven't been able to add depth because of the schollie limits. Now, we have some depth, but it's inexperienced depth and in some cases, inexperienced depth backing inexperienced starters.

To me, like with Pete Carroll, it will be about how this team finishes the season. Pete's first team started 2-5, but finished the regular season 4-0. It may be a lot harder for this team to finish that strong because it's a tougher schedule, but there needs to be improvement.

Agree re: Oregon, ND and UCLA. I'd throw Washington in their as well. I think we need to be competitive in all of those games and hopefully win a couple of them for Helton to be truly safe.

 

[WizardHawk]

Yeah, the fact that USC has the #1 SOS in the country should be taken into consideration, imo. It would be one thing to start 1-3, but when the 3 losses are all to teams that are ranked and were favored to win, that has to be looked at.

Yes, USC won the South last year, but we also had a more experienced team than we have this year. That's why I was saying before the season that I would feel a lot more comfortable with the schedule if we were playing it next year. Brand new starting qb and 6 of the defensive front 7 making their first starts isn't how you want to go into a schedule like this.

Yes, we've done well in recruiting, but while we have been able to get top recruits, we haven't been able to add depth because of the schollie limits. Now, we have some depth, but it's inexperienced depth and in some cases, inexperienced depth backing inexperienced starters.

To me, like with Pete Carroll, it will be about how this team finishes the season. Pete's first team started 2-5, but finished the regular season 4-0. It may be a lot harder for this team to finish that strong because it's a tougher schedule, but there needs to be improvement.

Agree re: Oregon, ND and UCLA. I'd throw Washington in their as well. I think we need to be competitive in all of those games and hopefully win a couple of them for Helton to be truly safe.

Pete actually spoke about that first year at SC just today during his weekly presser. He was asked about the development of his philosophy and he brought up his first year at SC and the problems they had with consistency in what was mostly a pass heavy offense. He said they entirely scrapped their identity over the off season and that's when he pushed for his conservative run heavy, but balanced offensive mindset. He said it was his favorite off season in all of his years of coaching. He of course gave credit to his staff at the time for actually forming the offense and giving him the vision he asked for.

I'd say it's worked out pretty well for him. All those great seasons at SC and now 2 NFC titles and a Lombardi.

So it wasn't just a learning curve first year on his team. It was a complete rebuild and rethinking from the ground up. It seems his team took to those changes and won using them pretty quickly then.

Coaching changes don't have to bring years of rebuilding, but it depends on how the existing kids buy into those changes and how they fit in.

 

[trojanfan12]

Pete actually spoke about that first year at SC just today during his weekly presser. He was asked about the development of his philosophy and he brought up his first year at SC and the problems they had with consistency in what was mostly a pass heavy offense. He said they entirely scrapped their identity over the off season and that's when he pushed for his conservative run heavy, but balanced offensive mindset. He said it was his favorite off season in all of his years of coaching. He of course gave credit to his staff at the time for actually forming the offense and giving him the vision he asked for.

I'd say it's worked out pretty well for him. All those great seasons at SC and now 2 NFC titles and a Lombardi.

So it wasn't just a learning curve first year on his team. It was a complete rebuild and rethinking from the ground up. It seems his team took to those changes and won using them pretty quickly then.

Coaching changes don't have to bring years of rebuilding, but it depends on how the existing kids buy into those changes and how they fit in.

And that's the exact position that Helton finds himself in. Moving back from a pass heavy attack to what USC has been known for.

Now, the question will be, can he get the current (and future) kids to buy into it like Pete was able to. If he can, then he has a chance to be very successful. If not, he'll be replaced.

 

[Eco]

I think the biggest issue I saw with USC is it just looked like they almost quit against Alabama. Now, it was different against Stanford, where I felt like they were just outplayed. But the players need to start feeling like they have something to prove because as much I don't like them, this is not USC football, and if the team starts to realize that more than wins and losses is on the line, and that pride is their primary target, than watch out Pac-12.

 

[WizardHawk]

I wouldn't mind a few years of trying to find yourselves.